rick -hbot question

Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism.

Moderator: ModeratorBill

believeinmiker
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:07 pm

rick -hbot question

Postby believeinmiker » Wed May 30, 2007 8:02 pm

You said in one of the posts, attack the brain first (mb12 & hbot). Our DAN said HBOT is a last resort. Can you explain why you feel differently.
Thanks in advance! :lol:

rlneub
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:37 pm

Postby rlneub » Wed May 30, 2007 9:06 pm

After monitoring over 20,000 hours of hbot and treating over 450 kids and only mb12 has better effect, I stand by this statement.

Examples by people on this board alone.

http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... light=hbot
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... light=hbot
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... light=hbot
http://toyou-myamazingson.blogspot.com/

If your child is a gut kid, hbot kills anerobic bacteria. Opens up the detox pathways for those who have a hard time excreting. Spec scans show increased brain activity. What is not to like?
Last edited by rlneub on Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

believeinmiker
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:07 pm

Postby believeinmiker » Fri Jun 01, 2007 8:17 pm

Rick ~ do you guys perform the SPECT exam before starting the hbot treatments at your facility?

rlneub
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:37 pm

Postby rlneub » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:56 pm

No. Do not see the need. Spec scans are costly and parents can tell after hbot if something good happened upstairs.

We did have one parent do spec scans to try for insurance reimbursement. Claim was denied. Out cost of HBOT and cost of the scan.

Do'C
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:25 am

Postby Do'C » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:32 am

Opens up the detox pathways for those who have a hard time excreting.


How does that work? The difficulty excreting and the "opening up of detox pathways for that difficulty"?

What is not to like?


High-pressure sales?
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 9008#49008

Unanswered questions from Dr. N.
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 9514#49514
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 0825#50825
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8973#58973
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8973#58973

Salesmen lacking basic information?
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 1392#71392

Ethics? Drugging kids?
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3441#83441
Do'C is a nickname, not a physician.

nickymyhero
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:07 am

Postby nickymyhero » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:06 am

If

a) Dr. Neubrander or any other DAN had answers to all of the questions regarding MHBOT or any other biomedical treatment for autism,

and

b) all parents of ASD kids had the intelligence to research this stuff and the courage to "go off the beaten path" of modern medicine to treat their children,

:shock: ONE IN 150 KIDS WOULD NOT BE SUFFERING RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!! :shock:

The bottom line is, yes, there are scientific principles at work here, but there is also clinical evidence.

Because of mHBOT, my son presents as an ENTIRELY different child than he did six months ago before we rented and subsequently purchased an MHBOT chamber from Dr. Neubrander's office.

We were never "pressured" (no pun intended) into doing either of these things and only felt as if we were receiving a tremendous amount of support regarding this process, even to this day. (Many of our questions have been answered by Dr. N through Rick at absolutely no cost just because he cares!!!!)

Our almost 5-year-old son, who lost every word and every skill at 30 months of age and would not even stay in the same room with other people is now:

1) speaking more loudly and clearly
2) happier and spunkier
3) doing puzzles on his own
4) playing "chase" games with and keeping tabs on his 2 1/2-year-old brother
5) swinging, playing in the sand box, and doing sidewalk paint whereas last year all he did was stand in the corner of our yard and rip leaves regardless of our attempts to involve him in functional activities
6) Making good eye contact
7) more engaged than ever

:D EVERYONE WHO SEES HIM NOTICES THE DIFFERENCE IN HIM!!!! :D

This board is intended to be a place for parents to learn from others, research information on interventions that may help their children, and share experiences to help other families.

I have no problem with people challenging the science behind different interventions. As parents doing everything humanly possible to help our children and maintain their safety in the process, it is our responsibility to explore every side of something before we take the plunge, but the last post on this thread seems more like a personal attack on Rick and Dr. Neubrander rather than just a challenge of mHBOT.

Rick and Dr. Neubrander are busy recovering children like my son; they should not be wasting THEIR time and energy attempting to answer questions that NOBODY has the answers to at this point.

Dr. Neubrander is a brilliant poineer in the treatment of autism. He has never claimed to have all of the answers, and he would be the first person to say that we, the parents, are his partners in solving the puzzle for each of our children because we are the ones who observe them on a daily basis. Dr. Neubrander never makes false promises that any intervention will work; he provides guidance based on a vast knowledge base and a plethora of clinical data and asks the parents to observe closely to determine whether or not their child is a responder.
M.S.

"I will leave no stones unturned to help my son reach his potential."

kathleenjj
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:09 am

Postby kathleenjj » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:08 am

Do'C wrote:
Opens up the detox pathways for those who have a hard time excreting.


How does that work? The difficulty excreting and the "opening up of detox pathways for that difficulty"?

What is not to like?


High-pressure sales?
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 9008#49008

Unanswered questions from Dr. N.
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 9514#49514
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 0825#50825
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8973#58973
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 8973#58973

Salesmen lacking basic information?
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 1392#71392

Ethics? Drugging kids?
http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3441#83441




D'OC

You seem to see things I do not, for one thing. I did not see any sales attempts.

Secondly, Dr. N does not have to answer questions here. This is not his forum. He is busy treating and healing his patients (of which my son is one) and spending a great deal of time at conferences helping others.

Dr. N is an amazing doctor and man. Without him, I do not believe my son would be entering regular kindergarten in August.

I think it sad that you attack another board memeber who reaches out to others so often. You seem so big on proof, yet you have none that mHBOT isn't helping many parents heal their children. Still, you attack and question.

I am glad that negative thoughts like the ones you spread were not more powerful than HOPE for me. And so, luckily, I found Dr. Neubrander and my son is getting well.
Last edited by kathleenjj on Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kathleen
Proud Mom

mibrielle
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:47 pm

Postby mibrielle » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:29 am

We use HBOT (through a different Dr, different part of the country BTW) & it works wonders for my son, that's enough "proof" for me!! :D

Maybe someone has considered it "last resort" due to the price? (ie try the less expensive interventions first?)
mibrielle

Do'C
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:25 am

Postby Do'C » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:29 pm

NMH,

If

a) Dr. Neubrander or any other DAN had answers to all of the questions regarding MHBOT or any other biomedical treatment for autism,


I'd settle for answers to a few basic questions.

and

b) all parents of ASD kids had the intelligence to research this stuff and the courage to "go off the beaten path" of modern medicine to treat their children,


Ooh, appeal to the intelligence and courage of alternative medicine seeker "children treaters". They might be intelligent and courageous, but that does not say anything scientifically (remember Dr. N is a medical doctor, went to medical school, and should be able to explain the science) about whether or not mHBOT actually works. It might work. I want to know why it should work any better than simple O2 therapy since the achievable blood O2 concentrations are so similar in many cases. I'm guessing there isn't much money in plain old O2 therapy, but I am open to the idea that the miniscule pressure change of an additional ~.29 ATA might do something.

ONE IN 150 KIDS WOULD NOT BE SUFFERING RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!


Suffering? Do you believe that the entire ASD spectrum of kids is suffering? Remember, PDD-NOS and Asperger's make up the majority.

The bottom line is, yes, there are scientific principles at work here, but there is also clinical evidence.


Not that couldn't be duplicated (without a chamber at all) with simple O2 therapy, if your using ~1.29 ATA without a mask and supplemental O2. If you're using the chamber and supplemental O2 by mask, then perhaps.

Because of mHBOT, my son presents as an ENTIRELY different child than he did six months ago before we rented and subsequently purchased an MHBOT chamber from Dr. Neubrander's office.


Would you expect that he would have had zero development, change, and growth if you had not rented and subsequently purchased an mHBOT chamber from Dr. Neubrander's office - AFTER 6 MONTHS?

We were never "pressured" (no pun intended) into doing either of these things and only felt as if we were receiving a tremendous amount of support regarding this process, even to this day. (Many of our questions have been answered by Dr. N through Rick at absolutely no cost just because he cares!!!!)


I'm glad you feel that way. I see Dr. N's use of phrases like "mental masturbation" (among others) amidst this apparently "great bringer of truth" dialogue as potentially intimidating to some parents.

"And truth it is that you should have – facts, not fallacy, fiction, finances, or ‘fricking around’ with your emotions or intelligence! Charisma does not equal truth! Strong statements do not equal truth! Personal vendettas do not lead to truth! Mental masturbation does not equal truth! Truth only comes from those of us willing to look not only at “known science” but beyond what science says to what parents see when what they see is compared by the same evaluation tools and reviewed by unbiased observers."

Hey, he may have the truth, if he does, he should be able to answer a simple question like, "If the same blood O2 concentration can be achieved with simple O2 therapy at a fraction of the cost, why should parents fork over big bucks for an mHBOT chamber?".

Our almost 5-year-old son, who lost every word and every skill at 30 months of age and would not even stay in the same room with other people is now:

1) speaking more loudly and clearly
2) happier and spunkier
3) doing puzzles on his own
4) playing "chase" games with and keeping tabs on his 2 1/2-year-old brother
5) swinging, playing in the sand box, and doing sidewalk paint whereas last year all he did was stand in the corner of our yard and rip leaves regardless of our attempts to involve him in functional activities
6) Making good eye contact
7) more engaged than ever

EVERYONE WHO SEES HIM NOTICES THE DIFFERENCE IN HIM!!!!


This is excellent.

This board is intended to be a place for parents to learn from others, research information on interventions that may help their children, and share experiences to help other families.

I have no problem with people challenging the science behind different interventions. As parents doing everything humanly possible to help our children and maintain their safety in the process, it is our responsibility to explore every side of something before we take the plunge, but the last post on this thread seems more like a personal attack on Rick and Dr. Neubrander rather than just a challenge of mHBOT.


If it were an attack, I would have said something derogatory about Rick himself, or said something regarding Dr. N's character. But I did not - and won't. The reason I did not is that I actually like Rick (contrary to what you or he may believe). I think he's got room to acquire some basic science education, but don't we all? He's very polite and genuine in my opinion. I also think Dr. N is extremely smart and about as parent-supportive and serious as they get (I can only go off of DAN! conference videos).

Rick and Dr. Neubrander are busy recovering children like my son; they should not be wasting THEIR time and energy attempting to answer questions that NOBODY has the answers to at this point.


Do you mean to tell me that they shouldn't be able to answer whether or not simple O2 therapy could accomplish the same increase in blood oxygen at a fraction of the cost?

Dr. Neubrander is a brilliant poineer in the treatment of autism. He has never claimed to have all of the answers, and he would be the first person to say that we, the parents, are his partners in solving the puzzle for each of our children because we are the ones who observe them on a daily basis.


I don't necessarily disagree with all of this point, but would note that this is exactly what parents want to hear, and it doesn't actually say anything about the efficacy of mHBOT.

Dr. Neubrander never makes false promises that any intervention will work; he provides guidance based on a vast knowledge base and a plethora of clinical data and asks the parents to observe closely to determine whether or not their child is a responder.


His vast knowledge should allow him to explain why simple O2 therapy at a fraction of the cost wouldn't be a good thing to investigate on behalf of parents since it can replicate many of the scenarios and acutal blood O2 concentrations.

Kathleen,

Dr. N does not have to answer questions here. This is not his forum. He is busy treating and healing his patients (of which my son is one) and spending a great deal of time at conferences helping others.


If simple O2 therapy would do the same thing as many cases of the chamber at a fraction of the cost, do you think that would help even more "others" or fewer?

Dr. N is an amazing doctor and man. Without him, I do not believe my son would be entering regular kindergarten in August.


Why do you believe that?

I think it sad that you attack another board memeber who reaches out to others so often. You seem so big on proof, yet you have none that mHBOT isn't helping many parents heal their children. Still, you attack and question.


You're right, I don't have proof that mHBOT doesn't work. I also don't have proof that bigfoot doesn't exist either, or that there is not life on Mars. I do have proof that one can achieve an identical blood oxygen levels (without a chamber at all) by using simple O2 therapy compared to many of the mHBOT scenarios. I don't see the harm in asking the question. If it worked, it would be immediately within reach financially for thousands of parents for whom a chamber is not.

I am glad that negative thoughts like the ones you spread were not more powerful than HOPE for me. And so, luckily, I found Dr. Neubrander and my son is getting well.


I apologize, I did not intended to be "negative", rather raise a couple of serious (IMO) points.

Mibrielle,

We use HBOT (through a different Dr, different part of the country BTW) & it works wonders for my son, that's enough "proof" for me!!

Maybe someone has considered it "last resort" due to the price? (ie try the less expensive interventions first?)


So what would be your take on simple O2 therapy if it were a fraction of the cost, and did the same thing?
Do'C is a nickname, not a physician.

mibrielle
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:47 pm

Postby mibrielle » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:55 pm

Do'C wrote:Mibrielle,

We use HBOT (through a different Dr, different part of the country BTW) & it works wonders for my son, that's enough "proof" for me!!

Maybe someone has considered it "last resort" due to the price? (ie try the less expensive interventions first?)


So what would be your take on simple O2 therapy if it were a fraction of the cost, and did the same thing?


IF it did the same thing - sure it would be great! Who wouldn't want that? BUT, I'm not so sure it would do the same thing. Of course I don't have "scientific studies" - but I can tell you that we used an oxygen concentrator alone for several months, without the chamber.... and without the results of the chamber. (we were waiting for the chamber to air out)
ETA: not ruling out that additional oxygen would not be helpful to ASD kids, just that we found HBOT more effective than oxygen alone.
mibrielle

rlneub
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:37 pm

Postby rlneub » Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:18 pm

Do'C,

We have patients who tried O2 alone. They did not report any progress. No study has been done on O2 alone. Maybe it does have some results. If parents want to try that go ahead. Then try the chamber and see if there is a difference. I am all for trying things.

Clinically, we have tried with a chamber. Clinically we have had kids go from non verbal to lose the Dx in 7 months. (ok I put out my best example). We will continue to provide what clinically we see working. Should the other prove as effective, we would recommend parents try it and save the cost.

I am sure there are parents outside of our clinic who have tried this. I do not see anyone saying how this improved their kids. Maybe the parents that do O2 alone do not know how to post on the internet. (above is sarcasm and no need of the strawman, appeal to emotion, ad hominum etc. as I intended it to be sarcastic).

Do'C - we try with our patients those treatments that have been reported to work. When we get a new treatment we let the parents know that we are trialing it. (such as zeolite & liverlife) Those treatments that we have seen little to no clinical results we do not recommend. Some treatments we see work in just a small percentage of kids. We let the parents know what our results have been and they can make up their mind whether to try it or not.

Do'C
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:25 am

Postby Do'C » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:30 pm

No study has been done on O2 alone.


Lot's of studies have been "unknowningly" done.

This is my point. In terms of increase in blood oxygen, many 'studies' (a couple by Rossignol, and hundreds of "trials" by parents), have done exactly that. An increase in atmospheric pressure of ~.29 ATA is probably completely clinically insignificant (feel free to provide evidence that I am incorrect, and make it specific to ~.29 ATA). To Anyone who is using mHBOT without a mask, benefits if they can be attributed to the mHBOT, are most likely due to the O2 increase alone. In many scenarios, this increase would be easily obtainable with O2 therapy alone.

Dan Rossignol has even acknwoledged this:

From: D.A. Rossignol, T. Small/Medical Veritas 3 (2006) 1–4
Interview with Dr. Dan A. Rossignol: Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Improves Symptoms in Autistic Children

"Some people have criticized using mild hyperbarics at 1.3 ATA because they state that when compared to this pressure, you can get just as high an oxygen concentration in the blood with oxygen by face mask without a chamber. And this may be true in some cases."

It is true in ALL cases where FIO2 is 30% or less, and the child would wear a mask (which I acknowledge, some may not).

http://www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopi ... 1508#71508

Rossignol continues on to hypothesize about a pressure effect, but does not provide an evidence of this at +.29 ATA. It's difficult to imagine it having real clinical impact (after all a similar pressure change could be accomplished for anyone who lives at certain elevations to move to sea level. Where's the advice for all those autistic people to move to an area of a little higher pressure and O2 content and "recover"?
Do'C is a nickname, not a physician.

Do'C
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:25 am

Postby Do'C » Sat Jun 02, 2007 3:34 pm

IF it did the same thing - sure it would be great! Who wouldn't want that? BUT, I'm not so sure it would do the same thing.


Why not?

Check my calculations in the above link. Send them to the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society and ask them to be reviewed. Send them this entire thread, and ask them if what I've said is accurate.
Do'C is a nickname, not a physician.

r's mom
Posts: 477
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:39 am

Postby r's mom » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:20 pm

D'oc

This part of the forum is for:-

Diet and Biomedical Treatments for Autism
Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism. For people using or considering biomed.

If you want to debate, the place for that is Media and Politics.

Do'C
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:25 am

Postby Do'C » Sat Jun 02, 2007 4:28 pm

I am always considering biomed - not for cure's sake, but to potentially alleviate specific medical issues. Just because I choose not to discuss specifics about my son, does not mean you should assume there aren't any.
Do'C is a nickname, not a physician.

mibrielle
Posts: 526
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:47 pm

Postby mibrielle » Sat Jun 02, 2007 5:51 pm

Do'C wrote:
IF it did the same thing - sure it would be great! Who wouldn't want that? BUT, I'm not so sure it would do the same thing.


Why not?

Check my calculations in the above link. Send them to the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society and ask them to be reviewed. Send them this entire thread, and ask them if what I've said is accurate.


Why not? I only know from my own experience, that's all I have to give, I am not a dr. - take it for what it is ... :wink: I was actually hoping the oxygen alone would do as much, but no, not for us, it did not. I'm sure oxygen could be beneficial in some way (hypoxia??), but just not in the same way as HBOT.
I don't necessarily have time for fact checking other people's questions or researching things to send them to others to be reviewed. Right now, the research I have time for is what to do to help my son in the immediate future, and to pass on whatever knowledge I have along the way to other parents whom it may help.
Some of the research I have done is to read "Hyperbaric Oxygenation for Cerebral Palsy and the Brain-Injured Child" It does have a few studies there that mention autism if anyone is interested...
mibrielle

momtoMatthew
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:47 pm

Postby momtoMatthew » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:10 pm

We also tried O2 alone for several months (had to save up the $$$ to purchase chamber). We were hoping that we wouldn't have to purchase the chamber at all and could use the saved $$$ for other therapies. Alas, the O2 alone did not give us the desired results (no progress shown).

Within days of starting with the chamber.......PROGRESS!!!!! :D

rlneub
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:37 pm

Postby rlneub » Sat Jun 02, 2007 9:33 pm

Be careful, anecdotal stories will not satisfy Do'C.

Greg
Posts: 314
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 7:08 am

Postby Greg » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:55 pm

Hello Do'C,

Just curious. Do you offer only oxygen therapy at miracle mountain or do does everyone just jump into the big box (hard shell hyperbarics)?

When I look through all of your posts, you always seem to be pushing oxygen over pressure.

Do you have any such studies or are you just poking holes in other protocols?

It seems as though that if oxygen alone would heal our children, then what's the sense of hyperbarics at all. I understand that hard shell is much higher concenrations of oxygen but then why use pressure at all? I really just have a hard time understanding your positions some times.

This is coming from a Father who witnesses the positives of mild HBOT therapy each and every day.

Thanks,

Greg

Do'C
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:25 am

Postby Do'C » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:40 pm

Just curious. Do you offer only oxygen therapy at miracle mountain or do does everyone just jump into the big box (hard shell hyperbarics)?


I have no idea what you're talking about here, can you help me out (or can someone explain)?

When I look through all of your posts, you always seem to be pushing oxygen over pressure.


I wouldn't say "pushing", rather, "lots of asking". I'm glad you seem to understand this part, because that's exactly what I'm suggesting since the pressure alone achieved by a Vitaeris 320 is probably inconsequential.

Do you have any such studies or are you just poking holes in other protocols?


I have hundreds of parent reports of progress, improvements, success, gains, etc. (many on this board). The reports are based on a setup for which increased blood oxygen is pretty likely to be the only relevant contributing factor (outside of confirmation bias, and placebo effect), because the pressure is so low.

It seems as though that if oxygen alone would heal our children, then what's the sense of hyperbarics at all. I understand that hard shell is much higher concenrations of oxygen but then why use pressure at all? I really just have a hard time understanding your positions some times.


Then let me clarify it for you Greg. Here's my position (question) as simple as I know how to make it,

There is no medical reason to suspect any "benefit" from pressure alone at +.29 ATA, that I am aware of. If you have one, please feel free to bring it forward (Rick and Dr. N have failed to do so in the past, and the speculative science that was brought forward turned out to be irrelevant so far. Rick concluded with "needs further study"). Are they studying it? Is anyone studying it? Nope. They continue to sell mHBOT (and study it), which is understandable, there probably isn't much money in plain old O2 therapy. If there is actual benefit, which there could very well be, it is most likely due to the increased oxygen, that's it. Regular oxygen therapy would make the chamber completely unnecessary in some scenarios (for kids who will wear a mask), because the same blood oxygen levels can be achieved (see the statement by Rossignol). This could make such therapy much more accessible to parents with limited financial resources.

This is coming from a Father who witnesses the positives of mild HBOT therapy each and every day.


Hey that's great. If parents could have the same positives for less than $200 a month (typical high flow concentrator rental), do you think that would be a good idea?
Do'C is a nickname, not a physician.


Return to “Diet and Biomedical Treatments for Autism”