L-Carnosine

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bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:54 am

Chez's study used 800 mg a day, split into two doses per day. I have heard of people going as high as 1000 mg per day.

We started "low and slow" at only 250 mg per day. We recently increased this to 500 mg per day, but I this didn't create an additional "wow" effect. We are still seeing improvement though.

From Chez's study:

Not a single child [out of 31] had to discontinue the study because of side effects. Parents reported only sporadic
hyperactivity, which was alleviated by decreasing the dose. Previous studies involving carnosine have indicated a very low toxicity level; among 691 cases of adult clinical
trials, no symptomatic side effects were reported.


We did see an episode two of hyperactivity (before increasing the dose) but it wasn't clear that this was caused by the L-Carnosine, although it might have. In any case, we haven't seen any new episodes of hyperactivity, even after increasing the dose to 500 mg. per day.

hameemmm
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:54 pm

Re: carnosine

Postby hameemmm » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:02 pm

kskids wrote:
connorsdad wrote:i personally asked the question about the safety of carnosine to dr pangborn at he 08 dan conference in cherry hill, because we were giving it for our son and seing good things with socialization and language, but i was hesitant because of dr pangborns article. his response to the safety question was:
"i am a scientist, so i can only comment on that aspect and not the view of a practitioner, but i would say if it is working, go ahead and use it, just make sure to supplement zinc and watch the copper levels"
we still use it off and on, it seems to have good initial effect (about a month)and then levels off after awhile, thats when we will stop and then restart about a month later.


Is there any regression when you take him off it for a month?? My concern has been that in using L-carnosine. What about the longevity of its affectiveness? My daughter's been on 200 mg twice a day for 9 months. I just started increasing it to 400 mg twice a day (as per the Dr. Chez study) to get any added benefits. (BTW, I do give her extra zinc with it.) Most of what I've read suggests there is no regression, but others of course say there is. What is your personal opinion??


I see this post was from 2009. But the information would help me a lot as I am trying L-Canosine for my 2.5 years old. Did you find out the answer for your above question on the regression and longevity ? We tried this for 2 months with my kid and he is showing some improvement with social and cognitive skills. But When I reduced the quantity by half after 2 months I could see some regression with hyper activity, spinning and laughing...etc. Please share you experience with this supplement that would be very helpful. Appreciate your help!

hameemmm
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:54 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby hameemmm » Wed Sep 14, 2016 3:18 pm

Do anyone knows how long this L-Carsonine to be used ? Are there any regression after stopping this supplement ? I tried this for 8 weeks with my 2.5 year old and I could see regression when I reduced the quantity by half. Your knowledge and experience on this will help to to decide how long should I use this supplement.

williams_dad
Posts: 2970
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 6:47 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby williams_dad » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:50 am

IMHO not at all
http://www.autism-pdd.net/testdump/test15421.htm
Pangborn - a contrary view
Hi All:

While I've been busy preparing my half of the new DAN! Consensus Report (2002 Edition), lots of Internet talk about the peptide carnosine has evidently occurred. While I have no desire or intention to engage those who are enamored with this latest magic bullet for autism, I do find itappropriate to point out some of the concerns and pitfalls of carnosine use in autism.

Carnosine is a dipeptide composed of the amino acids histidine and beta-alanine. It seems that it gets dragged out of the closet every decade for some use or other. In the 1970s it was muscular dystrophy. In thediet, it comes from incomplete digestive proteolysis of beef, pork, tuna and salmon - as you can see in the amino acid analyses on the urine of autistics and other patients with maldigestion. Carnosine is elevated in the urine of 20 to 40% of autistics. In the 1980s, Bernie Rimland and I discussed thisfinding and considered it to be another facet of the maldigestion and peptideexcess per the findings of Karl Reichelt, et al.

In body tissues, carnosine is split into histidine and beta-alanine. Beta-alanine can be a real troublemaker, and I'll get to that shortly. Histidine is the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde part. Histidine becomes FIGlu and FIGlu pushes the formation of 5-formiminotetrahydrofolate. This is good, even though it often raises FIGlu levels in the urine and blood of autistics. It's good because: (a) it helps remove a potential folate trap, and (b) itleads to two forms of folate that are required for purine and purine nucleotide synthesis. One of these forms, 10-formyltetrahydrofolate, comes in just after the adenylosuccinase step and helps "pull" the process along at adocumented sticking point for some forms of autism.

However, histidine and carnosine are powerful carriers of copper. They transport copper from the intestinal milieu into the portal blood and from there to organs and tissues in the body. And don't think you can displace copper with zinc once the copper is on histidine - you cannot. The equilibrium constannt for copper II chelated to histidine is 18.3; for zinc it is 6.7 to 12.9, depending on chelate structure (Ref. Chaberek and Martell, Organic Sequestering Agents, John Wiley & Sons, p.549). Because these are exponential relationships, the real difference in the constants is 10 tothe 5th up to 10 to the 11th. Only glutathione, cysteine and thionein can intercept this carnosine-copper transport, but that's one of the big problems in autism, isn't it? These sulfur players have gone AWOL, and copper is excessive at the expense of zinc. Dr. Bill Walsh has made excellent presentations on this. You might think that carnosine plus zinc will act to put zinc in and take copper out. With these equilibrium constants and with the natural copper content of food, that's very unlikely. You need a million or more zinc atoms for each copper atom to be competitive in this game!

Histidine/carnosine-copper wisdom has graduated into medical textbooks. We're not talking about research papers; we're talking what you should and shouldn't do per medical texts. Copper homeostasis with histidine and histidine-albumin complexes are well discussed by David Danks, Chapter 58 of Stanbury et al, The Metabolic Basis of Inherited Disease, 5th Ed, p.1252-1254. For carnosine, the publicity is a bit worse. Carnosine is a threat to worsened Wilson's disease because it and its sister anserine are such good importers of copper to body tissues. Ref: Scriver CR and TLPerry, Chapt 26 in Scriver et al eds, The Metabolic Basis of Inherited Disease6th ed McGraw-Hill (1989) 765.

Now, let's go to the really bad guy here, beta-alanine. To be concise: beta-alanine blocks renal conservation of taurine and causeshypertaurinuria - loss of taurine in the urine. This, in tuurn, causes urinary loss of magnesium, which worsens sulfotransferase activity as well as lots ofother necessary enzymatic processes. If you give carnosine, you lose taurine and magnesium. There are lots of references, but you can start with Dr.Charles Scriver's work referenced above, because all of this biochemistry (carnosine, beta-alanine, taurine, etc.) is closely related.

Did you know that, years ago, Monsanto had a R&D project to replace Aspartame with a beta-alanine dipeptide, because of patent expiration? Chemical and Engineering News published a notice, and the project was canned shortly thereafter. I'd like to think that it was because chemists, including me, wrote them letters about beta-alanine. The public can be grateful that product never made it into circulation.

Oh, I forgot to tell you why FIGlu sometimes goes up in autism. A bunch of credit on this goes to Dr. Sid Baker who observed it. Give folate andFIGlu goes up, not down, in some autistics. After some quick library work Ifound that the FIGlu -to-formiminoTHF enzyme requires pyridoxal 5-phosphate.This needs more study, a lot more, but with Dr. Tapan Audhya's finding of very slow P5P formation in autistics, it fits.

In summary, giving carnosine to the average autistic will at first cause perceived improvement - probably due to the FIGlu-push effect. After some weeks, taurine loss, copper accumulation, magnesium loss, etc. can, unfortunately, reverse the trend and may leave you with a worsenedcondition to deal with.

Jon B. Pangborn, Ph.D. Fellow, American Institute of Chemists
http://spectrumsleuth.fr.yuku.com/forums/11/General/General

luis
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby luis » Sat May 06, 2017 2:25 pm

I'm wondering if the hyperactivity or irritability issues come from histamine, after carnosine is degraded into it.
And then I wonder if giving a mast cell blocker, as Lutimax for ex., would solve it.

Please, comments.

FatherOf2
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby FatherOf2 » Sat May 06, 2017 4:26 pm

luis wrote:I'm wondering if the hyperactivity or irritability issues come from histamine, after carnosine is degraded into it.
And then I wonder if giving a mast cell blocker, as Lutimax for ex., would solve it.

Please, comments.

Interesting idea. I have been wondering if all irritability issues in my son from different supplements are coming from histamine.My son has a DAO mutation, which affects breakdown of histamine. Perhaps the main reason why my son is doing so well on Quercetin is because it stabilizes mast cells and prevents the release of histamine. But on the other hand, any anti-histamines like Claritin or Zyrtex have no effect on him at all. My son also gets angry on Carnosine and it was the main reason why we stopped it. Perhaps combining Carnosine with Quercetin may reduce the irritability from Carnosine. I wouldn't advice Lutimax because my son gets angry on it too, possibly because of its stronger MAO inhibition that Quercetin.

Mossy
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby Mossy » Sat May 06, 2017 5:25 pm

Seems like histidine would be superior to L-Carnosine as why bother with beta-alanine?

Increased histidine reduces histamine production as it inhibits mast cell histamine release, even though it is a precursor, as the choke point is histidine decarboxylase enzyme action (mostly found in mast cells) which combines with p5p.

So another mast cell inhibitor shouldn't be needed.

Histidine can also block copper uptake and increase zinc uptake, good to give if you're trying to up zinc.

Think its worth a broader try for the community, easily available in powder form and dissolves without much taste in a little water versus l-carnosine.

FatherOf2
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby FatherOf2 » Sun May 07, 2017 1:16 am

This article is quite interesting: http://secondopinionphysician.com/treat-elevated-histamine/. I learned a few new things:

1. Curcumin inhibits DAO, which leads to higher histamine, but also stabilizes mast cells. Inhibition of DAO is possibly another reason why my son became irritable on Curcumin (other two reasons are sulfur and inhibition of MAO).

2. DAO can be taken as a supplement. Has anyone tried? What brand?

3. Supplements that stabilize mast cells are Quercetin, Reishi mushrooms (yet another positive mentioning of Reishi, which is claimed to be calming), Astragalus, and some other.

4. Stress causes adrenal fatigue (low cortisol production) and excess CRH hormone, which causes cortisol release from the adrenal glands. But CRH also increases histamine. Cortisol itself lowers histamine levels, but with stress there is not enough of it. So, if one could reduce histamine with other means, that would reduce adrenal fatigue. Interestingly, Quercetin not only stabilizes mast cells and, by doing so, reduces their histamine release, but also reduces excess CRH, which puts pressure on adrenal glands to produce cortisol.

5. HDC enzyme converts histidine into histamine. It can be slowed down by SAME-e, NAC, Carnosine (???), and some other supplements. But Carnosine is converted into histidine, which in turn is converted into histamine.

Mossy
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby Mossy » Sun May 07, 2017 2:42 am

To make it clearer while HDC converts histidine and B6 (P5P) to histamine it, extra histidine actually inhibits mast cells from releasing histamine so more histidine (eg from more carnosine) curiously = less histamine.

luis
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby luis » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:51 pm

I think I may have some news here. I've started my son a few days ago on Carnosine. The first days, he was great, as some of you told before. Then, he started to get irritated.
After some research, I found out that Carnosine is also a chelator, and that it may deplete Magnesium.
Some signs on my son were of Magnesium deficiency (extreme sound sensitivity, besides irritation).
I've upped his Magnesium dosage today, and he seems much better now.

Well, let's see what next days will bring to us.
I've also found this about Carnosine:

https://selfhacked.com/2016/06/21/carno ... tochondria


Luis

marcuswelby
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:29 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby marcuswelby » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:34 pm

Interesting discussion.......We tried my son on a few different antihistamines before with very negative results. He was combative and really irritable. That got me researching the idea of low histamine levels. Has anyone had any experience with trying histidine supplements (non-canosine/non-beta alanine) just by themselves?


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