L-Carnosine

Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism.

Moderator: ModeratorBill

Ian's mom
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:52 pm

Postby Ian's mom » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:07 pm

Started it this morning, 250 mg along with 25 mg zinc. We will see..... He has a field trip today, and we are meeting friends for dinner tonight, so it should be interesting.
After the storm comes the rainbow.

bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:11 pm

I just want to note that for those who decide to try this, just make sure you get L-Carnosine (with an "s") and NOT L-Carnitine (with a "t"). These are often confused because they look and sound so much alike.

CheriO
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:36 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby CheriO » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:40 pm

My son is on L carnosine now for the 2nd time. It does not seem to be helping as much this time? maybe its bc he was on the b12 shots before at the same time?

Ian's mom
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:52 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby Ian's mom » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:29 pm

Ian has been on it since Friday. He has had increased hyper, and is more aggressive, talking back more. Have not seen positives yet.
After the storm comes the rainbow.

CheriO
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:36 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby CheriO » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:56 pm

Our old DAN dr told us to give Casey the L carnosine for expressive language. He said if it works you can tell quickly.
I'm not sure about other things its supposed to do. As a matter of fact, until it was mentioned on this board, I had never known of anybody else other than us that had used it.

tmargetis
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:50 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby tmargetis » Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:39 am

I have friends that have been giving this to their kids for years, with great results. My doc reccomends it a lot to the right kids. I think that if it works it does so fast. I saw socilaization right away.

kskids
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:50 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby kskids » Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:08 am

Ian's mom wrote:Ian has been on it since Friday. He has had increased hyper, and is more aggressive, talking back more. Have not seen positives yet.


When I started my daughter on it it was at a very low dose maybe 50 mg. once a day and gradually increased it from there. Even at that low of a dose she seemed kind of irritable and a bit hyper. But eventually things got a lot better. I'm glad I stuck with it b/c her apraxia and expressive language drastically improved about after a week of being on it!! :D

bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Sun Jun 14, 2009 1:56 am

After looking at the studies again, I question whether supplementation with zinc or Vitamin E is needed.

The full text of Chez's study is available online for free here: http://www.carn-aware.com/aarticle.pdf

In the study, Chez did not use zinc or Vitamin E, only L-Carnosine.

Also, according the Chez, the suspected mechanism of action of L-Carnosine is the modulation of both zinc and copper.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that zinc and Vitamin E are also needed. As far as I can tell, it is from marketing material for a product that combines those with Carnosine and uses Chez's research for support. At the moment I am not aware of any research showing a need to also use zinc and Vitamin E if using L-Carnosine. Please let me know if you are aware of such research.

bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:16 am

Michael Chez published a book last year (2008). I just checked it to see what he says about L-Carnosine.

You can see it here: http://books.google.com/books?id=-jRp4W ... nt%22+chez

L-Carnosine is discussed on p. 170. Again, there is no discussion of co-supplementing with zinc and Vitamin E. If be believed that zinc supplementation was important, he probably would have mentioned it here. Also, he mentions that it probably blocks both excess zinc and copper and zinc influx into the brain--a statement that would appear to contradict a need to co-supplement with zinc.

Claudia
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby Claudia » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:12 pm

If you are referring to The Medical Management of Autism (I believe), I have that book. (EDIT: yes, it appears you are referring to that book.) Dr. Chez doesn't go into any depth discussing his studies on L-carnosine. He simply mentions it as a potentially helpful therapy.

The company Carn-Aware was created under his direction and markets an L-carnosine supplement. It DOES contain zinc and vitamin E. The added zinc is only 2.5 mg, so it is not a megadose by any means, but it is added to enhance the performance of the dipeptide.
4 year old daughter diagnosed with PDD-NOS at one time but no longer qualifies.

bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:11 pm

Yes, I emailed Carn-Aware and they confirmed that their products was designed by Michael Chez. So I would assume that the zinc and Vitamin E is included for a good reason.

kskids
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:50 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby kskids » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:46 pm

CheriO wrote:My son is on L carnosine now for the 2nd time. It does not seem to be helping as much this time? maybe its bc he was on the b12 shots before at the same time?


About 2 weeks ago I increased my daughter's dose to an additional 200 mg. of Carnosine (she was already on 200 mg. twice a day). And her apraxia and expressive language has improved by at least 25% than before, since starting this new dose!! I hope it continues like this...I'm crossing my fingers!!! I (and I'm sure like many others) don't understand why some benefit so well with this product, and others not? :?

bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Thu Jun 18, 2009 4:48 pm

"I (and I'm sure like many others) don't understand why some benefit so well with this product, and others not?"

My theory: It is a strong anti-oxidant that can pass the blood brain barrier and is particularly effective against copper. It's effect is achieved by protecting the integrity of the cell membranes of neurons in the brain, by reducing the oxidation of the phospholipids in the brain, and possibly by freeing up glutathione to assist in this as well.

If my theory is correct, then people for whom L-Carnosine works well may also benefit from phosopholipids and high dose fish oil. See my post in the phospholipids thread. We started with fish oil and phospholipids with good results. I was trying to figure out why the phospholipids helped so much and one of the likely culprits was oxidative stress, and that's how I got interested in L-Carnosine and other anti-oxidants.

If someone has tried both L-Carnosine and OSR separately, I'd be curious to hear how they compared.

dabaxter
Posts: 4052
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby dabaxter » Thu Jun 18, 2009 9:59 pm

bookwurm wrote:Yes, I emailed Carn-Aware and they confirmed that their products was designed by Michael Chez. So I would assume that the zinc and Vitamin E is included for a good reason.


We started with Carn-Aware and had good results. We switched to 2 different brands of l-carnosine with the same results. In summary, IMO Carn-Aware is way overpriced and their customer service is just plain awful. Save yourself some headaches and just buy a good l-carnosine and give 400mg twice per day, as per the Chez study.
$5 off iherb.com. Use:REW815/$5 off pureformulas.com Use:RJNXCX

Claudia
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:06 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby Claudia » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:59 pm

dabaxter wrote:
bookwurm wrote:Yes, I emailed Carn-Aware and they confirmed that their products was designed by Michael Chez. So I would assume that the zinc and Vitamin E is included for a good reason.


We started with Carn-Aware and had good results. We switched to 2 different brands of l-carnosine with the same results. In summary, IMO Carn-Aware is way overpriced and their customer service is just plain awful. Save yourself some headaches and just buy a good l-carnosine and give 400mg twice per day, as per the Chez study.


What is a good company?
4 year old daughter diagnosed with PDD-NOS at one time but no longer qualifies.

dabaxter
Posts: 4052
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby dabaxter » Thu Jun 25, 2009 7:09 pm

Claudia wrote:
dabaxter wrote:
bookwurm wrote:Yes, I emailed Carn-Aware and they confirmed that their products was designed by Michael Chez. So I would assume that the zinc and Vitamin E is included for a good reason.


We started with Carn-Aware and had good results. We switched to 2 different brands of l-carnosine with the same results. In summary, IMO Carn-Aware is way overpriced and their customer service is just plain awful. Save yourself some headaches and just buy a good l-carnosine and give 400mg twice per day, as per the Chez study.


What is a good company?


Not shipping for 3 weeks is bad, leaving me without Carnosine is bad. Not shipping at all is bad. Refusing to credit my account for not shipping until after I sent my credit card after them is bad. Need I say more. I found out by necessity that a generic brand of carnosine will work just as well.

I've had good luck with Vitacost, LuckyVitamin, iHerb, VitaminLife etc. My favorite has been Vitacost.
$5 off iherb.com. Use:REW815/$5 off pureformulas.com Use:RJNXCX

bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:12 am

We're using NSI L-Carnosine from vitacost and it has been working fine. (NSI is vitacost's "house brand" and is often their least expensive option.)

bookwurm
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:26 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby bookwurm » Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:51 pm

Some new research on the potential benefits of L-Carnosine. It looks like it can help protect both the brain AND the gut!




Peptides. 2009 Jul;30(7):1306-12. Epub 2009 Apr 10.Click here to read Links
Inhibitory effect of carnosine and N-acetyl carnosine on LPS-induced microglial oxidative stress and inflammation.
Fleisher-Berkovich S, Abramovitch-Dahan C, Ben-Shabat S, Apte R, Beit-Yannai E.

Clinical Pharmacology Department, The Faculty of Health Sciences, Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, P.O.B.: 653 Beer-Sheva 84105, Israel.

Chronic inflammation and oxidative stress have been implicated in the pathogenesis of neurodegenerative diseases. A growing body of research focuses on the role of microglia, the primary immune cells in the brain, in modulating brain inflammation and oxidative stress. One of the most abundant antioxidants in the brain, particularly in glia, is the dipeptide carnosine, beta-alanyl-L-histidine. Carnosine is believed to be involved in cellular defense such as free radical detoxification and inhibition of protein cross-linking. The more stable N-acetyl derivative of carnosine has also been identified in the brain. The aim of the present study was to examine the role of carnosine and N-acetyl carnosine in the regulation of lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced microglial inflammation and oxidative damage. In this study, BV2 microglial cells were stimulated with bacterial LPS, a potent inflammatory stimulus. The data shows that both carnosine and N-acetyl carnosine significantly attenuated the LPS-induced nitric oxide synthesis and the expression of inducible nitric oxide synthase by 60% and 70%, respectively. By competitive spectrophotometric measurement and electrospray mass spectrometry analysis, we demonstrated a direct interaction of N-acetyl carnosine with nitric oxide. LPS-induced TNFalpha secretion and carbonyl formation were also significantly attenuated by both compounds. N-acetyl carnosine was more potent than carnosine in inhibiting the release of the inflammatory and oxidative stress mediators. These observations suggest the presence of a novel regulatory pathway through which carnosine and N-acetyl carnosine inhibit the synthesis of microglial inflammatory and oxidative stress mediators, and thus may prove to play a role in brain inflammation.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Exp Brain Res. 2009 Jun 24. [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Effects of carnosine on long-term plasticity of medial perforant pathway/dentate gyrus synapses in urethane-anesthetized rats: an in vivo model.
Süer C, Dolu N, Artis S, Aydogan S.

Faculty of Medicine, Department of Physiology, University of Erciyes, Kayseri, Turkey, suer@erciyes.edu.tr.

The objective of this study was to examine the effect of carnosine on the hippocampal-dependent learning in perforant pathway/dentate gyrus synapses. The experiments were carried out on adult rats. A bipolar stimulating electrode was placed to the medial perforant path and a double-barrel glass micropipette was placed in the dentate gyrus as the recording electrode. Artificial cerebrospinal fluid (to control group) or carnosine (0.1, 1 mug/muL) was infused into the dentate gyrus via one of the barrels of the glass electrode. Our results showed that the I/O curve of excitatory postsynaptic potential (EPSP) slope or population spike (PS) amplitude was not significantly shifted by carnosine. Although carnosine infused prior to high-frequency stimulation (HFS) decreased the slope of EPSP and amplitude of PS, when infused after HFS, no effect was observed. In the present study, we speculated that carnosine decreased LTP by inhibiting sGC activation. The present experiment provides the first evidence that carnosine may play a role in synaptic plasticity in dentate gyrus in vivo.



The wikipedia article for "synaptic plasticity" says this:

"In neuroscience, synaptic plasticity is the ability of the connection, or synapse, between two neurons to change in strength. There are several underlying mechanisms that cooperate to achieve synaptic plasticity, including changes in the quantity of neurotransmitters released into a synapse and changes in how effectively cells respond to those neurotransmitters.[1] Since memories are postulated to be represented by vastly interconnected networks of synapses in the brain, synaptic plasticity is one of the important neurochemical foundations of learning and memory."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


J Pharmacol Sci. 2009 Jun 19. [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
Polaprezinc (Zinc L-Carnosine) Is a Potent Inducer of Anti-oxidative Stress Enzyme, Heme Oxygenase (HO)-1 - a New Mechanism of Gastric Mucosal Protection.
Ueda K, Ueyama T, Oka M, Ito T, Tsuruo Y, Ichinose M.

2nd Department of Internal Medicine, Wakayama Medical University, Japan.

Heme oxygenase (HO)-1 is implicated in cytoprotection in various organs. We tested a possibility that polaprezinc (PZ), an anti-ulcer drug, could induce HO-1 in the gastric mucosa. Male 6-week-old Wistar rats were intragastrically administered PZ. Gastric expression of HO-1 was assessed by real time RT-PCR and western blotting, and localization of HO-1 was observed by in situ hybridization and immunohistochemistry. The levels of HO-1 mRNA were increased in a dose-dependent manner. The levels of HO-1 mRNA were increased 4-fold by PZ at the dose of 200 mg/kg at 3 h as compared with control levels. The levels of immunoreactive HO-1 were increased 3-fold at 6 h. Signals for HO-1 mRNA and immunoreactivity were detected strongly in the surface gastric mucosal cells and moderately in the gastric macrophages. Treatment with an HO-1 inhibitor, stannous mesoporphyrin (SnMP) significantly worsened the HCl-induced acute gastric mucosal lesions and increased the apoptosis of mucosal cells. Mucosal lesions were decreased by pretreatment with PZ, while they were increased by co-administration with SnMP. These data indicate for the first time that PZ [Polaprezinc, made up of L-Carnosine and Zinc] is an effective inducer of HO-1 in the stomach. PZ-induced HO-1 functions as a part of the mucosal protective effects of PZ.

tmargetis
Posts: 805
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:50 am

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby tmargetis » Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:00 am

Thanks for posting! This has been one of our biggests "wows", and we havent been doing it that long. What is the max dose do you think? I have been doing 400 mg 2 times a day, and was thinking of doing more. It is also nice to know it doesnt seem to be brand specific for effectiveness.

Tanya

dabaxter
Posts: 4052
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: L-Carnosine

Postby dabaxter » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:33 am

You can try going up Tanya to see what your child will tolerate. My 40lb child takes 2 500mg capsules per day with no problems. You may find as you increase dosage that hyperactivity may be a problem. Let us know what dose you end up stopping at.
$5 off iherb.com. Use:REW815/$5 off pureformulas.com Use:RJNXCX


Return to “Diet and Biomedical Treatments for Autism”