Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

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Josie
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Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby Josie » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:31 am

What is PPA?
PPA is a short chain fatty acid produced by gut bacteria like Clostridia. A small amount of PPA was infused into the brains of rodents. They became hyperacive and showed object fixation, also the brains of PPA rodents showed metabolic, biochemical and physiological abnormalities.

Research by Dr. Sidney Finegold compared the gut flora of children with regressive ASD to neurotypical children. The results show that clostridial counts were higher in the children with autism. Also the number of clostridial species found in the stools of children with ASD was greater than in the stools of neurotypical children.

Here is a link for more information

http://treatautism.ca/dr-sonya-doherty- ... essionals/
Last edited by Josie on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dabaxter
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby dabaxter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:46 am

The big question is how to get rid of it permanently.
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JeniB
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby JeniB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:53 am

bowel transplant. Hey, dabaxter...what exactly was the process you did with this? did you guys do the bowel cleanse too? Did the donor take vanco or just your child? I'm trying to look at this closely. Wonder why it didn't have as dramatic an affect as the other parent that posted on here. hope you don't mind me asking.
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby JeniB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:10 am

Bacteria

Third, the propionibacterium acne is a bacterium that lives on your skin and uses the sebum as nutrients for his growth. The sebaceous glands are hypersensitive to androgens that causes enlarge of gland and more sebum secretion. In puberty the androgens hormone is secreted more and thus there is more sebum secretion and more Propionibacterium acne in the follicle. The presence of P.acne attracts WBC to the follicle and thus an inflammatory reaction is settled up


any of you mom's have acne issues in your lifetime? supposedly there's a homeopathic for this type of bacteria. Wonder if it could help? I think Andrea Lalamas a mom who recovered her kids used it.

http://www.homeopathyworldcommunity.com ... -treatment
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby JeniB » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:15 am

Jen
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dabaxter
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby dabaxter » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:05 am

JeniB wrote:bowel transplant. Hey, dabaxter...what exactly was the process you did with this? did you guys do the bowel cleanse too? Did the donor take vanco or just your child? I'm trying to look at this closely. Wonder why it didn't have as dramatic an affect as the other parent that posted on here. hope you don't mind me asking.

We only gave our child the vanco. We took the sample, prepped it and put it in. We've done 2 of these.

I did not see the other parent's comments but would like to understand if there was a different method for them too, as well.
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satirace
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby satirace » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:06 pm

dabaxter and JeniB,
i posted all of my info and the procedures that I have over on the other topic. http://autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 68#p205368

dabaxter, you wrote that you had issues with Clostridia, but not specifically Clostridia Difficile (CDiff) that you were aware, it might be that most of our issues were stemming from the particular neurotoxins that CDiff creates. Everyone has some clostridial species in their systems, just like we all have E Coli species but particular strains are pathogenic and cause problems while others do not.

For us I think that once we were rid of the CDiff, it allowed the other interventions to really take off. I do not believe that the CDiff caused my son's autism, I believe that it was caused by the vaccines he received and the fact that his body was fighting the CDiff at the same time. We did NOT have a slow progression into autism. For our son it was overnight, literally. Vaccines, then that night 105 degree fever, rash all over his body, horribly ill, petecchiae, complete and immediate self restriction of foods, ear infection, then antibiotics followed but he continued to have fevers for an entire month and would no longer sleep at night after that. Even when he recovered we knew something was not right because he no longer slept but the peds denied it. Loss of words followed, (autism was never mentioned or even thought of at this point as he had passed his MCHAT prior), then 3 months later - the nail in the coffin - more shots. Then immediately seizures, head banging, staring off into nothing, spinning, licking metal, the list is the same as everyone else's and goes on and on.

My point in all of this is that in doing biomed we were able to get rid of a lot of the symptoms, but it wasn't until we rid him of the CDiff that he was able to take off. If the body is fighting so hard against such a destructive bacteria like CDiff then maybe there is nothing left to heal the rest.

Clearly not everyone has CDiff, but what if along with the CDiff we cleared up something else (as yet unidentified) as well? or something like Desulfovibrio?:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21592674

I don't know why it works for some and not for others, but at least in our case there must be some kind of connection to the gut. So many people suffiering from Crohn's, IBS, and Chronic Fatigue are also having amazing outcomes after transplants maybe they were past the developmental stages and that's why it looks in an older person like those issues, but in young children it presents as the group of symptoms known as autism.

Just my 2 cents and where my mind goes when I try to understand what changed, and then what caused us to be back on track.

JeniB
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby JeniB » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:12 am

didn't you do a cleanout, prior to the transplant satirace? I'm thinking this is what is necessary maybe. Did you use miralax to clean the colon prior? How do you know it worked and how long did he take the miralax? did you continue yeast treatment after the transplant? or any other yeast/bacteria fighters...or did you stop these and just give vitamins and such?

sorry for all the questions. We only have the funds to maybe do this once. I would also love for you to send me a pm to let me know the doctor you worked with. Maybe we can get a referral to someone local.

thanks!
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby JeniB » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:00 am

http://genome.jgi-psf.org/desde/desde.home.html

found this info, may be why our kids sulfate is such an issue. looks like it produces some nasty toxin as well

Motivation for Sequencing
Sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRB) are most notable for the conspicuous end product of their respiratory metabolism, hydrogen sulfide, which is chemically reactive and quite toxic to plants, animals and humans. Since these bacteria are killed by exposure to atmospheric oxygen, the environmental niches most frequently occupied by these bacteria are anaerobic.


I'd also just read something else about it in a dog, the dog developed stiff hind legs. This happened to my dog as well. He got very unwell suddenly (he was old, but he did deteriorate rapidly), bloated abdomen too. He could no longer get up and down the stairs, he was big and I was having to carry him outside to "go" we had him put down 2 years ago. Wonder if you're right about this microbe? Wonder if this is why MMS may be helping some kids, since it's a reactive oxygen treatment. Vitamin C does this as well in very large doses. They cured polio 9 times out of 10 here in NC a long time ago with IV vitamin C. Dr. Klenner....he also cured MS with IV B1.

The economic and environmental processes which have historically driven the desire to understand the metabolism of the SRB include underground corrosion of iron or steel gas or water pipes and generation of noxious sulfide during digestion of domestic and agricultural wastes. These bacteria have been a particular problem for the petroleum industry not only because of their role in metal corrosion but also because of the souring of the petroleum by the hydrogen sulfide generated and the health hazard presented by this gas. D. desulfuricans G20 originated from a corrosion site and rapidly corrodes mild steel (Odom, 1993). All these interfaces with human activities result from the energy generating processes of these anaerobes.


could be why metals are so toxic to our kids as well. It's action on degrading metals.
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Josie
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby Josie » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:22 pm

I think some of the aggressive behavior in our children is their reaction to pain they feel in their gut from some of the bad bacteria living there. Some things that I have found that help are Culturelle Digestive Health Probiotics (Dairy & Gluten Free), Heather's tummy care Pepperment tea, you can oder it here http://www.helpforibs.com/teas/peppermint.asp, and Catnip tea. The peppermint tea calms and soothes and is great for pain.
Last edited by Josie on Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

satirace
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby satirace » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:26 pm

Hi Jeni,
yes we did EVERYTHING that I posted in the procedures for each of the links. Soup to nuts. I do think that the Vanco and the bowel prep are extremely important. Although the cleanout was definitely the worst part, and yes we did use Miralax, it' the only time i have ever given it to him, but it is much easier to get that in via the directions of adding it to Gatorade than to have tried anything else, and this procedure was the priority no matter what we had to do to make it happen.

We did not do any yeast treatment immediately prior to, or after, the transplant and all of the tons of probios that we were giving him we stopped after the transplant although they recommend doing Sacc B for 60 days after? not sure, but I needed to know for sure if it worked and did not want to muddy the waters with something else. If it had not worked when we tested we just would have done another transplant or done it for a few days in a row, like they suggested for extremely difficult cases. Although if you do it several days in a row, you do not need to do the cleanout every day, just prior to the first day.

The bowel prep is only one day, the day prior to the transplant and the day after you stop the Vanco or Flagyl, so yes it's awful and even the diapers couldn't hold it in so we had to put the plastic diaper pants over top, and i followed him around every second to be sure that I was right on top of it so that it didn't leak through.

We did not have a doctor involved because I could not find a hospital or doctor willing to do it on a child, however there was someone else who pm'd me that did find a doc willing to help. I've asked the name but have not heard back so maybe the doctor does not do it normally. I don't know, but if she gives me permission I would happily post for those that might live in the geographical area where he is located.

I have a huge container of the psyllium husk, so instead of paying 20$ for a 1/4 teaspoon out of the container, if you like - pm me your address and I will be glad to send you a teaspoon through the mail ;)

satirace
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby satirace » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:45 pm

Oh and JeniB i forgot a couple of things,
you do NOT want your DONOR to take Vanco as vanco kills off both good and bad bacteria, also ideally your Donor should NOT have taken any kinds of antibiotics in the last 3 -6 months, which i read somewhere is how long it takes your gut to reestablish good bacteria that are killed by the antibiotics. And honestly now that our DS is free and clear of the CDiff it would have to be something really horrible for me to consider giving him any antibiotics in the future for fear of causing this problem again.
HTH

Josie - it' interesting that you posted that info from the article about PPA. The original rodent study that your article quotes is what put me on this path 2 years ago. After our son was diagnosed with Autism, I was feverishly researching everything I could find related to autism, i barely slept. I came accross that study and knowing that my Aunt had contracted CDiff in the nursing home while recuperating from a pacemaker implant I was acutely aware of the damage it caused her. She became so violently ill that she was placed on hospice and given 3 days to live from the Cdiff.

While she had been in the nursing home, I had taken my children with me every day to see her, and she was touching my son, he never left the carrier and i would always wipe him down immediatey with a baby wipe, but I was unaware of the horrible bacteria that can be passed on and had absolutely no idea of the spores from CDiff that live in the environment for years that can only be killed by bleach.

Anyway, i had come accross that study and thought OH MY GOSH! I printed it and took it to the pediatrician with me and asked for a stool test. She did not want to do it, but i wasn't leaving without it. When it came up positive she did not even have a clue about what it was and did not want to treat him, but i had already gotten a copy of the lab results and made an appointment with a pediatric infectious disease doctor. I also brought the rat study to her and she had been unaware of it prior. She wrote us our first prescription for the Flagyl. Unfortunatey we could not kick it and ended up doing 4 jor 5 rounds total of Flagyl and Vanco before the transplant kicked it for good.

I truly believe that all children with autism should be tested specifically for CDiff, as the OAT and Moat never picked it up for us , only the specific test for Toxins A and B. Children of nurses or those working in a medical field seem to have an especially high rate of infection (my personal opinion from reading many forums with children infected) and that is probably because the spores stick to everything and are so difficult to erradicate.

satirace
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Re: Prorionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby satirace » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:09 pm

JeniB, just heard back from the other Mom, it is a doctor in Calgary Canada that has been in the news for treating patients with CDiff, that is going to help her with her child's transplant. She did not tell me the name but for those in Calgary, definitely someone they could look into. I'm sure that a quick google search for news articles in Calgary on Cdiff would bring him up as a lead for them.

Interestingly she had been told a number of times that she would probably have to go to the US to get someone to do it for her, but even though the doc is 6 hours away from her at least it's closer than coming to the US.

Josie
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Re: Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby Josie » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:12 pm

Here is more information on propionate acid & Clostridia

HPHPA is an abnormal phenylalanine metabolite produced by gastrointestinal bacteria of Clostridia species.It is a tyrosine derivative, 3-(3-hydroxy-phenyl)-3-hydroxypropionic acid. It is related structurally to the neurotransmitters dopamine and norepinephrine and is associated with behavioral, gastrointestinal, and/or neuropsychiatric effects. Sidney Finegold, MD, the chief of the Anaerobic Bacteria Laboratory at UCLA, estimates that there may be over a 100 species of Clostridia. C. sporogenes, C. botulinum, C. caloritolerans, C. mangenoti, C. ghoni, C. bifermentans, C. difficile, and C. sordelli are some of them. Clostridia are spore formers and the spores are resistant to drugs and that is why it is is so difficult to get rid of.

It seems like this bacteria is responsible for many of the problems our kids have but it is very difficult to remove permanently. Hopefully transplants are the answer.


For more information go to these websites

http://www.psychology.uwo.ca/pdfs/autis ... estion.pdf

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/home/eng/hphpa.asp

luis
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Re: Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby luis » Thu May 04, 2017 2:17 pm

Hi,
Bumping this old topic because of the Nemechek protocol.
One of inulin metabolites is PROPIONATE.
Would this be bad for our kids guts ?

When I give inulin to my son he gets "happy" for some time (minutes), but after one hour I have to give him charcoal, otherwise he feels terrible.

Please, someone more knowledgeable give me an advice.
Thank you !
Last edited by luis on Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

majadj
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Re: Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby majadj » Thu May 04, 2017 5:16 pm

Wikipedia
Due to its resistance to digestive enzymes, inulin remains entire until it reaches the large intestine. At this stage, inulin is converted by colonic bacteria to a gel known as a prebiotic, which is highly nourishing to gut microflora.

Propionat is enteric short-chain fatty acid (SCFA), among others (butirat, etc.) produced by bacteria in colon.
SCFAs have protective function in the gut, so they must be present in the right value and proportion. Not too high, but not too low.
MacFabe demonstrates that SCFA's can induce autistic-like symptoms when injected into rats.
…enteric short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), present in diet and also produced by opportunistic gut bacteria following fermentation of dietary carbohydrates, may be environmental triggers in ASD. Of note, propionic acid, a major SCFA produced by ASD-associated gastrointestinal bacteria (clostridia, bacteroides, desulfovibrio) and also a common food preservative, can produce reversible behavioral, electrographic, neuroinflammatory, metabolic, and epigenetic changes closely resembling those found in ASD when administered to rodents. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 6.issue-s3

Patrick Nemechek:
The over riding effect of inulin is to promote the normal colonizing bacteria of the small intestine and they end up suppressing the high-propionic acid producing bacteria.
Net effect is less propionic acid is produced

Luis,
I think that your child becomes gassy from inulin. Few drops of simethicone (Espumisan) has solved my child's problems.
Don`t know is it allowed in the protocol (and don't care :wink: )

luis
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Re: Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby luis » Fri May 05, 2017 9:42 am

Thank you very much for your reply, Majadj !!!

Ivia
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Re: Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby Ivia » Fri May 05, 2017 12:55 pm

Maja,
what do you think about the Nemechek protocol? Do you see any improvements whit your daughter?

majadj
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Re: Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby majadj » Sun May 07, 2017 3:52 pm

Few years ago I found study of Dr MacFabe about propionate and its toxic effect to brain.
He believes that propionat is more absored through porose gut/blood bariere, and that it is capable to produse in the rat`ş brain structural and functional changes simillar to ASD.
MacFabe didn't offer solution. Only spoke about dietary changes, about ferment. food (kefir, cabbage, onion, garlic...).
How should I force my 12 years old girl to eat that???
I thought about inulin at that time and found out that it is something you don't want to give your child because it feeds bad bacteria.
We have tried everything, but never inulin.
I don`t know who is Dr Nemechek. He connected several hypotheses that can be found in different studies in one protocol.
And it is not dangerous.

I am giving inulin and CLO with some extra omegas and olive oil. But, I am keeping PEA and BrainGain as antiinflamatorios, besides that.
I use Simethicone for bloating, and sometimes Iberogast to prevent constipation.

It is too early to judge, we are in this protocol for 2 weeks only.
Just want to mention something like regression that occurred after first 5-6 days.
It was something like panic attack that had developed slowly and culminate one night. Fear of everything, dark, hollway, her room, window...
My lamb turned to wolf that night, refusing to go to bed to sleep. Looked me directly in eyes, quarreled with me.
Afraid, anger, excited - but present.
Next couple of days, she was quieter.
Nemechek has mentioned that that kind of behavior develops due to lack of sedative effect of propionate (brain fog?). I hope so.
Her stemmy behavior is somehow different. It seems she is trying to imitate it from early days because it used to give her peace.
Her speech is still poor.
Her face looks sharper, her acnes withdrew; her hair looks shinier.
She is more present, hears from the other room what I am saying (she is interested?); looking more in my eyes; full of fears (nothing new...), but in general happier, more willing to accept my jokes (as much as she understands).
She isn't bloated (she used to be with probiotics), doesn't have constipation.
O, yes, I will continue with this protocol...
Sorry for long post.

luis
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Re: Propionate (PPA) & Clostridia

Postby luis » Mon May 08, 2017 8:40 am

Thank you, again, Majadj ! Very important information you gave me.
Good luck to your daughter !!


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