antibiotics improve symptoms...

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oleander
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Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:22 pm

antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:09 am

Has anyone noticed that when your child is on antibiotics for whatever reason their Autistic symptoms improve? Every time my son is on Antibiotics he is a completely different kid in a good way. Sleeps through the night, will eat anything, calmer... What does this mean? Do antibiotics kill yeast or is there a bacterial thing going on? Thanks.

FatherOf2
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Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby FatherOf2 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 3:41 pm

oleander wrote:Has anyone noticed that when your child is on antibiotics for whatever reason their Autistic symptoms improve? Every time my son is on Antibiotics he is a completely different kid in a good way. Sleeps through the night, will eat anything, calmer... What does this mean? Do antibiotics kill yeast or is there a bacterial thing going on? Thanks.

Antibiotics will kill bacteria. Yeast will actually get worse because it will occupy the GI space left from the dead bacteria (good or bad). Many here reported improvements from antibiotics (except me, I never saw any improvements from antibiotics in my son). Most likely, you child has a Clostridia Deficile, but your OAT or stool culture test should tell you for sure. Another possibility is that your child has some other hidden bacterial infection. There is Lyme disease test from some obscure lab, you have to find it in old posts here.

oleander
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:47 pm

Thanks. I am waiting for OAT results. What about colloidal silver to kill anything hidden?

FatherOf2
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby FatherOf2 » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:50 pm

oleander wrote:Thanks. I am waiting for OAT results. What about colloidal silver to kill anything hidden?

Don't even think about! Silver stays in the body for the rest of your life, eventually causing Argyria.

oleander
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:22 pm

Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:59 pm

Ok Lol What are some other natural treatment?

amndzon
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby amndzon » Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:51 am

You might want to explain the reasons why you are using the antibiotics. When my daughter has a fever she gets better for a short time, she shows the same improvements that you listed. It's not the antibiotics, but the fever and higher body temp that causes the improvement. This happens with a lot of our children.

oleander
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:22 pm

Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:01 am

No fevers. He is not on antibiotics right now but when he is for ear infections he is always a different child. Then he regresses after a week or so. I think hidden bacteria might be the problem.

Mayzoo
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:50 pm

Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby Mayzoo » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:47 am

Do some research on a condition called PANDAS and see if it seems to fit your child.

Here is a start: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... ndex.shtml

http://latitudes.org/forums/index.php?showforum=17
DD 2002. PANDAS, Autism, ACMI, AC, Syrigiomylia, BL Strabismus, and Torticollis.

oleander
Posts: 58
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:56 am

Thank you. I am starting to think it s PANDAS.

fiveyearswasted
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby fiveyearswasted » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:38 pm

Chances are you are taking some kind of penicillin or other common abx that focuses on gram-postive bacteria. If that is helping then you should check his levels of ASO and D-nase for immune response to a Strep infection. These can cause an autoimmune response where the body is attcking itself. Check ANA levels for autoimmune response. If PANDAS / strep infection is suspected the go to abx is azithromycin. This can and should be used for a long period. This is an older abx so many docs don't like using it but it is particularly good for strep.

Keep in mind that clostridia, and yeast are not only unaffected by the gram-positive type abx, they can easily overgrow on them. Yeast needs to be treated with anti-fungals. Clostridia will need a specific abx like oral vancomycin, metronidazole, or tinidazole. Tindizole is probably the best but it is very new and few docs have heard of it or have used it.

In the case of having a concurrent strep infection, clostridia infection, and a yeast infection, one would need to use 2 kinds of abx and an anti-fungal at the same time. Not many docs are willing to do that though.
No scientific evidence that autism has a toxic or allergic basis. - Mr. Barrett

oleander
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:41 pm

Great! Thank you.

FatherOf2
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby FatherOf2 » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:53 pm

fiveyearswasted wrote:Chances are you are taking some kind of penicillin or other common abx that focuses on gram-postive bacteria. If that is helping then you should check his levels of ASO and D-nase for immune response to a Strep infection. These can cause an autoimmune response where the body is attcking itself. Check ANA levels for autoimmune response. If PANDAS / strep infection is suspected the go to abx is azithromycin. This can and should be used for a long period. This is an older abx so many docs don't like using it but it is particularly good for strep.

Keep in mind that clostridia, and yeast are not only unaffected by the gram-positive type abx, they can easily overgrow on them. Yeast needs to be treated with anti-fungals. Clostridia will need a specific abx like oral vancomycin, metronidazole, or tinidazole. Tindizole is probably the best but it is very new and few docs have heard of it or have used it.

In the case of having a concurrent strep infection, clostridia infection, and a yeast infection, one would need to use 2 kinds of abx and an anti-fungal at the same time. Not many docs are willing to do that though.

Our immunologist said that because my son doesn't have ticks he doesn't have PANDAS. Is that correct?

oleander
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:57 pm

My son only had tics for maybe 2 weeks until we supplemented taurine. And that was way after the other symptoms surfaced.

oleander
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:06 pm

Could we not keep the clostridia and yeast in check with probiotics and garlic, GFSE etc when using the azithromycin. Maybe a dumb question but...

fiveyearswasted
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:08 pm

Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby fiveyearswasted » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:49 am

FatherOf2 wrote:
fiveyearswasted wrote:Chances are you are taking some kind of penicillin or other common abx that focuses on gram-postive bacteria. If that is helping then you should check his levels of ASO and D-nase for immune response to a Strep infection. These can cause an autoimmune response where the body is attcking itself. Check ANA levels for autoimmune response. If PANDAS / strep infection is suspected the go to abx is azithromycin. This can and should be used for a long period. This is an older abx so many docs don't like using it but it is particularly good for strep.

Keep in mind that clostridia, and yeast are not only unaffected by the gram-positive type abx, they can easily overgrow on them. Yeast needs to be treated with anti-fungals. Clostridia will need a specific abx like oral vancomycin, metronidazole, or tinidazole. Tindizole is probably the best but it is very new and few docs have heard of it or have used it.

In the case of having a concurrent strep infection, clostridia infection, and a yeast infection, one would need to use 2 kinds of abx and an anti-fungal at the same time. Not many docs are willing to do that though.

Our immunologist said that because my son doesn't have ticks he doesn't have PANDAS. Is that correct?


If you think about what a strep infection does (at least the stuff that we know about).....through molecular mimicry it copies the cell walls of of the cells around it and confuses the immune system initiating an auto-immune attack of the immune system against your own body. This is why simple strep infections turn into serious stuff like rheumatic fever: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheumatic_fever
where the immune system is turned against the heart and or brain.
It is short sighted to not test ASO, D-Nase, and ANA levels to determine if there is / was a strep infection, and an ongoing autoimmune response. Visual ticks should be secondary or considered separately from testing. Positive tests are 100% conclusive of an infection.
FWIW, my son had elevated levels of the 3 tests mentioned.

Modern examples have shown us that there are plenty of kids with negative test results that quite clearly do have PANDAS. That is where the visual signs (ticks, movement & speech issues) can warrant the empirical use of antibiotics. Ticks do not mean that testing should be skipped, instead it means that testing is all the more important.
No scientific evidence that autism has a toxic or allergic basis. - Mr. Barrett

fiveyearswasted
Posts: 499
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby fiveyearswasted » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:14 am

oleander wrote:Could we not keep the clostridia and yeast in check with probiotics and garlic, GFSE etc when using the azithromycin. Maybe a dumb question but...


You've probably got the bad trifecta of infections: gram positive, gram negative, and fungal.
Azithromycin only works on gram positive bacteria, leaving clostridia and yeast alone. Most of the healthy bacteria are also gram positive so using azithromycin against strep is also going to wipe out the healthy bacteria needed to keep clostridia and yeast in check.
Interestingly, metronidazole (flagyl) and tinidazole have little effect on the healthy bacteria.

In this bad trifecta, fighting any one of the 3 will result in an overgrowth of 1 or 2 of the others.
The other problem is that most docs use far too little for far too short a period to cause remission of the infection.
For azithromycin and strep infections, many kids require 8 full weeks of full dosage and even then some require a weekly prophylatic dose until their teen years. Fortunately this has abx has proven safe to use indefinitely.
Metronidazole has been used for months in some conditions. It may take longer than the standard 1 to 2 weeks to treat a chronic clostridia infection. The important thing is not to stop too early otherwise all is lost.
For yeast diflucan is probably the best way to go. Take a normal dose for 7 days, test liver function, if all is okay double the dose for 7 to 10 days, then back it down to the normal dosage. You may need to stay on this for a year or more. Many docs only Rx antifungals for the shortest period shown on the box, and this is a sure way to have the yeast come back. In fact I have never heard of one autistic kid beating yeast on a single round. For us, we needed to use anti-fungals for over a year but we did stop the yeast.
No scientific evidence that autism has a toxic or allergic basis. - Mr. Barrett

JeniB
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby JeniB » Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:40 am

FWIW, we had a great affect with using just Zithromax and not treating clostridia with vanco. We do have some unknown clostridia strain that's high, but we were always giving things that I think helped keep it down too like OoO. OoO in high enough a dose (in the small capsules) is pretty good against clostridia. not as good as the very expensive antibiotics (which we could never afford) but it did seem to stop it's sporulation temporarily. I've heard that a type of mint does this too. Peppermint I think? I believe during it's use we were on GFSE and OoO. Now we only use biocidin and lipophos forte for infections. We also saw good response to Flagyl, which is inexpensive but has a few nasty side effects (the benefits of using it outweighed the possible side effects).

I think that bacteria is the biggest player in autism, personally. I think yeast is over focused on. It's rare to see a kid get better on diflucan, or get better enough to make a big difference, like what we've seen here on antibiotics. The yeast is there because the bacteria's endotoxins are so damaging. Yeast can actually help lower levels of the toxic byproduct of sulfides produced from gut bacteria. Yeast is also used in animal feed to reduce mycotoxin exposure. The yeast is there because the other bad things are there. imo.
Jen
(mom of 3)

iherb referral code: HOF516
save $5 on first purchase

Josie
Posts: 393
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Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby Josie » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:14 pm

JeniB wrote:FWIW, we had a great affect with using just Zithromax and not treating clostridia with vanco. We do have some unknown clostridia strain that's high, but we were always giving things that I think helped keep it down too like OoO. OoO in high enough a dose (in the small capsules) is pretty good against clostridia. not as good as the very expensive antibiotics (which we could never afford) but it did seem to stop it's sporulation temporarily.
I've heard that a type of mint does this too. Peppermint I think?
I believe during it's use we were on GFSE and OoO. Now we only use biocidin and lipophos forte for infections. We also saw good response to Flagyl, which is inexpensive but has a few nasty side effects (the benefits of using it outweighed the possible side effects).

I think that bacteria is the biggest player in autism, personally. I think yeast is over focused on. It's rare to see a kid get better on diflucan, or get better enough to make a big difference, like what we've seen here on antibiotics. The yeast is there because the bacteria's endotoxins are so damaging. Yeast can actually help lower levels of the toxic byproduct of sulfides produced from gut bacteria. Yeast is also used in animal feed to reduce mycotoxin exposure. The yeast is there because the other bad things are there. imo.


I have been using peppermint tea with good results. Here is a website where you can get it in 1 lb. bags. It is organic and has a wonderful flavor.

http://www.norfolkholistic.ca/product_i ... 66d6aed3d5

Here is a link to the peppermint oil capsules

http://www.norfolkholistic.ca/index.php ... b3dd17eb68

guiandres
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Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 1:29 am

Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby guiandres » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:55 pm

Many symptoms come from immune system responses. Antibiotics suppress the immune system and can cause a temporary improvement of symptoms, but then usually lead to rebound infections that fire up the immune system again.

oleander
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:22 pm

Re: antibiotics improve symptoms...

Postby oleander » Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:47 pm

Do you have any suggestions guiandres? Thanks


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