Is this why some professionals don't recommend NDF Plus?

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Is this why some professionals don't recommend NDF Plus?

Postby guest » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:02 pm

This information was copied from the files section on the enzyme and autism yahoo group. Down below, there is a reference to chlorella, which I know is in the NDF Plus.
Here is the info:

If a metal contains at least 2 positive charges, it can
be "chelated" or bound to the chelator by two bonds. If it is only
connected by one bond, it will still have another positive charge
with which to bind to something else. If your friend has grabbed
both of your hands to hold onto you, it is much harder to pull you
away from him. However, if he is holding only one of your hands and
your other one is free, another person could come along and grab
your free hand as well. If the second person was much stronger and
wanted to pull you away, he would have a much easier time of it than
if both your hands were held by the first person.

This is why some products are not advised for actual chelating
because, although they draw out mercury and bind to it, the bonding
is not extremely tight. There is a good chance the mercury with
bounce off at some other place in the body while it is being
excreted, and cause damage to the new area when it re-attaches in
the body. Chlorella, cysteine, penicillamine, glutathione, "sulfur
foods," etc. are not true chelating agents because they only hold
onto the mercury with one bond. They can attract metal ions and draw
them out of hiding places, but they may lose the metal before it
successfully gets transported out of the body.Lipoic acid (as
dihydrolipoate which your body converts it into), DMSA and DMPS each
have TWO thiols or sulfur groups per molecule so they hold onto the
mercury atoms tighter than your body does and have a chance to
really escort the mercury out instead of just stirring it up. Thus
these are CHELATING AGENTS - chemicals with 2 or more binding groups
per molecule so they hold on to the metal atom tightly.




So is it saying that the cholrella in NDF Plus can re-distribute the mercury somewhere else in the body?
I really want to start NDF Plus with my son but now I am a little scared.

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:45 am

This is basically the argument my environmental doctor challenges NDF with. He dosent want my son to use it. Says its very weak and that there are better routes to follow. I trust him.

mary beth

Chlorella chelators

Postby mary beth » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:52 pm

We used a natural product similar to NDF which has many of the same ingredients, including chlorella. After using it for a long time, we found high mercury in the blood but none in the urine or stool, which means that mercury was being stirred up but not being eliminated by the body. So we had to go straight to drug chelation to try to get the mercury that was circulating out!

When I read your post, I thought of our situation. I don't know why that happened to my child, but your post got me thinking about it. The latest DAN paper did not recommend using chlorella-based chelators although I do not know exactly why.

KristenP
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:36 pm

Postby KristenP » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:16 pm

That is scary. I just started NDF plus a couple weeks ago without any other precription chelator. I had posed that question previously about chlorella. The DAN paper from Feb. does NOT recommend using it. I figured well, may as well try it because "it can't hurt." and it seemed that many parents were having good results. Now I am not so sure. Don't want to be mixing up the toxins and not truly getting them out! Tami and thoughts or comments on this?
Thanks,
Kristen

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:28 pm

Does anyone know or is this possible,

if the mercury is unbound enough to be present in blood but not bound enough to be excreted, can the mercury "resettle" in places like the brain and possibly cause more damage?

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:39 pm

I don't know anything about mercury but according to people in the field there is such a thing as "redistribution" which is exactly what you are describing . I tried to do a literature search on this and found that it is described for some lead chelators so I guess it's possible with mercury as well
Alex's mom

Srinath

NDF

Postby Srinath » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:45 pm

OK NDF does not have fulvic acid, now the excretion route is urine and most of it happens within 2-3 hours of the dosage. I also believe if the child is low on Glutathione the excretion will be very poor. Fulvic acid supports liver function whihc is the main source of Glut. So NDF + whihc has Glut is better and you add in glut with that, and that may help, also you should start with low dose of NDF and test the kid for mercury in blood, urine and stool I believe. Anyone that knows better can correct me please.
Thanks.
Srinath.

sashasmom
Posts: 1788
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:03 pm

Postby sashasmom » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:50 pm

But don't most people use NDF and NDF+ with a drug chelator like TD-DMSA to help get the mercury in the blood and then the DMSA excreet it? Also when using TD-DMSA you always allpy TD-Glutathione first so it all works together.

What I understood from our DAN! was that the NDF was used to pull mercury b/c it's hard to get mercury to come out with DMSA (right away at least) and you use the TD-DMSA with it to make it excreet.

I don't know anyone using the NDF or NDF+ by itself without a chelator but then again everyone I know is using TD-DMSA.

-Crystal

Srinath

Starting

Postby Srinath » Sun Dec 18, 2005 8:53 pm

We are starting out and NDF+ is what our DAN doc put him on. DMSA or any other chelator is good at pulling it out, you need glut I believe to get rid of it. Now ALA may help as well. I am sorta reaching here, I have not got deep enough into the different chelators to talk about them.
Cool.
Srinath.

Guest 2

Postby Guest 2 » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:35 pm

I think what y’all are discussing here is relevant and maybe this post may help.
Here are some points and statements on similar questions that were raised other biomedical boards.
They were discussing chelation regard to Rx chelators compared to natural chelators which contain cilantro, chlorella. They also mention the thiol groups and redistribution.


Statement
However cilantro isn't as desirable because it only contains one sulfur atom to bind to the mercury, then can more easily release it. Chelators w/ two sulfurs are better to hold the mercury until it is excreted.


Answer
this statement is incorrect regarding chelators w/2 thiol groups.

Chelators w/2 thiol groups drop mercury -- they do not hold it "until
it is excreted". So the statement is generally wrong to start with.
The active ingredients in cilantro are unknown, so I don't think
anyone knows the structure of the atoms involved!
Generally, I read this as a statement I would ignore.


Statement.
I believe I have heard this many times but can you clarify for me.
Does this also apply (chelators w/2 thiol groups.) to the properties of ALA DMSA and DMPS?

Answer.

yes-- ALA, DMSA, DMPS all have 2 thiol groups, they all drop mercury that is why having a good chelation protocol in place is essential.




Statement
I think what happens with chlorella is that it is not a true
"chelator" so it may displace mercury and redistribute it instead
of hanging on to it (like a true chelator would ) until it is excreted.

Answer

The idea that chlorella is "not as good" is okay.
Beyond that, this is wrong.
Again, chelators DO NOT "hang on until it is excreted".
This idea is "comforting" to people emotionally, but incorrect.


Question

Again does this apply (DO NOT hang on until it is excreted".) to Rx chelators and if so which ones?

Answer
to be a real chelation agent for mercury requires having 2 thiol groups.
ALA and DMSA and DMPS all have 2 thiol groups.
They do not "hang on till excreted", although people do say this.


Statement

I think it is LIKELY that chlorella does redistribute mercury already
in the body, but I'm not positive about it, and consider the evidence
one way or another to be inadequate for me to say with confidence.
It seems likely, but I wouldn't want to try to debate it or substantiate it.


Question

I guess what I am trying to understand chelation better that way I can help others with safe protocols and implement them myself. Would you be ale to explain if you have not already above, how and what makes a chelator effective as it related to the binding principles and the thiol groups?

Answer
DMSA, DMPS and ALA are all chelators for mercury. They have to be taken frequently so that you get the
mercury out of the body.

TamiW
Posts: 3855
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:46 pm

Postby TamiW » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:06 am

Here is a link to Dr Ray's "The Mobilization and Elimination of Systemic Heavy Metals in the Context of Biological Medicine." It was really helpful for me to understand why NDF's are so safe when used correctly. http://www.healthydetox.org/articles/pu ... o_med.html

KristenP,
The great thing about the NDF PLUS is it does so many things including helping the body drain the toxins and opening up pathways. It is not JUST a chelator. I think the idea that the toxic metals just stir up but don't get out of the body is true, possible, and probably happening all the time. That is why it is so important to have the liver and kidney support, drain the acids in the body and restore the pH balance to where it needs to be so this does not happen. Through lots of reading and talking to others, I've learned that irritability, frustration, explosive anger can all be a sign of liver congestion. If the liver is congested, it's much harder for the body to drain the toxins from the body.
I am not good at explaining the technical stuff as I am not a doctor, just a mom. But I do understand how the body works, fairly well (always learning more) and know that the NDF PLUS has done nothing but good things for my son when given the appropriate dose. We did have to decrease the dose when we took away the TMG with the MB12 and when we started LDN.

Crystal,
We used NDF PLUS and NDF with my son for a very long time (over a year) by themselves with no other chelator. We had used oral DMSA for a few years prior. We just added in TD DMPS 7 months ago. IT worked great for us all by itself and with other chelators.
Tami

Guest

Post subject: Is this why some professionals don't recommend

Postby Guest » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:46 am

Through lots of reading and talking to others, I've learned that irritability, frustration; explosive anger can all be a sign of liver congestion. If the liver is congested, it's much harder for the body to drain the toxins from the body
.

You may be absolutely right and I will not argue with that for one min. But must mention in addition to this from much of my reading, that this also takes place with.
 Too much too quick,
 Poor chelators
 And /or protocols which promote redistribution.

TamiW
Posts: 3855
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:46 pm

Postby TamiW » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:07 am

And I won't argue with you for a minute either. LOL It's funny how I think I can tell who this is by just that one statement! I do have to ask what you mean by poor chelators. How would those cause these problems. I can agree with a bad protocol. But the chelator itself, if used with a proper protocol wouldn't be a "poor chelator," would it? Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying. By the way, is it your shift to do the doses tonight again? :D
Tami

KristenP
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:36 pm

Postby KristenP » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:53 am

Ughhh. So confusing. I am going to keep up with hte NDF+ because I have not seen any regressions, bad behaviors etc. Need to ask the Dr, but Tami do you recommend TD-DMSA with this?
Thanks,
Kristen

TamiW
Posts: 3855
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:46 pm

Postby TamiW » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:27 pm

KristenP,
This stuff IS so confusing. ANd each child is so different. But if I were to start all over again that is what I would do for my son. I would start with a natural chelator to ease into chelation and gently bring down the load. Then I would add in DMSA (whatever form...I'd do TD as you are) cause it is a good lead chelator. We know that lead is many times necessary to bring out before mercury can be excreted. Although with DMSA we did always pull mercury along with the lead, but it was never in huge amounts. The lead was always high. I think using DMPS is only a good idea if you've already addressed the lead with EDTA, DMSA or another lead chelator. We are using TD DMPS now cause we chelated for a few years with DMSA. I think using a variety of chelators is a good idea to get a broad range of toxic metals excreting.

My best to you!
Tami
Tami

mll1972
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:37 pm

Postby mll1972 » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:38 pm

Tami,

I have NDF Plus, haven't started yet. I'm scared alittle that I will be possibly causing more upset in his system. But, I also read that many parents have seen postive results with the NDF+. What liver supports should I use for my son, currently we have none in place but would like to start. Thanks
mom of wonderful son with ASD.

TamiW
Posts: 3855
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:46 pm

Postby TamiW » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:55 pm

I can only tell you what we are using. We use Liver Life from BioRay. I am sure there are others out there, but honestly I haven't heard of or had any experience with them. A few things you can do without even purchasing a liver support product is give lemon juice in their drinks every day, include more alkaline forming foods and supplements into their diets. The site below is helpful to know which foods to choose from. http://www.nutritionsandy.com/pH.htm

If you are going to start the NDF PLUS, you might consider joining the http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/BioRaynaturaldetox This, I am hoping, will make it easier to see what is happening with the products. There are a few of us who've already started the Liver Life. So you may want to read over the posts (more than just mine) so you can make an informed decision. Hope this helps.
My best to you,
Tami
Tami

Dana
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:22 pm

Postby Dana » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:04 pm

I did a hair analysis on my son days before starting NDF Plus, and then again after 3 months of being on NDF Plus. He excreted mercury, bismuth, arsenic, lead,cadmium and tin. His essential mineral also balanced off instead of being too high or dangerously too low. The minerals that leveled off were: calcium, copper, magnesium, manganese, all increased to more acceptable and safe levels.

NDF Plus contains milk thistle for liver support, but I also give my son plenty of antioxidants for extra support. (vitamin E, vitamin C, NAC, melatonin) I also started giving him liver life to help cleanse the liver and flush out toxins and byproducts in the liver.

Here's a link about my son and others from this site. www.autismweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t ... +excreting

I started my son on all the essential vits. and minerals first, his aminos, probiotics, enzymes then the NDF+, the NDF+ greatly decreased his toxic load and I believe made starting TD DMSA a much easier/gentle chelation process on his system. I can in all honesty say that if I had it to do again, I would follow the exact same process. I hope some of my sons experience may help others,

good luck and blessings,
Dana

guest

Postby guest » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:41 pm

Dana,
Since NDF Plus has milk thistle in it, you don't recommend taking additional milk thistle but liver life instead? Do you start this at the same time as you start NDF Plus?
Also- do you start TD glutathione before you start the NDF Plus? Thanks for all your help!

Kenny V

Postby Kenny V » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:58 pm

Ok I would like to add my 2 cents whatever that may be worth.
But hope it doesn't become a debate cause that is why I had reframed from this thread from the nature of the topic. But I rather give an observation as a parent heeding advice to another parent. I may agree with many strong points that have been made referring to chelation /redistribution/ protocols because I am looking for some of the same answers myself as it refers to the use of An RX chelator along with NDF plus.

But I see this from a different perspective as well because we HAVE been chelation for some time now using Rx chelators and doing so well. I was interested in adding NDF plus to my protocol as heard some reports too. Personally I am still in the investigation stage. Mind you looked into chelation for over 6 month before even implementing it over 3-1/2 years ago.
I spoke to Tami off line (phone call) and she knows where I am coming from and I think (hope) she will see this post as constructive even though I may not come up with the same advice that she gave.
However one thing I would like to mention that she said was that every parent should be comfortable before doing anything and I wouldn’t talk anyone into doing what they felt was not clear.
So with that said I would like to offer my opinion on what Tami said because we have both been chelating for some time now with Rx chelators and our children are similar in many ways of their progress and also they are same age 7 yo. AND Tami wont attack me
Lol… :| :shock: ..Hopefully :wink:

What I would say if I can do it all over again I would have never have stopped chelation BC I believe I would be that much further today. (Long story) cause since returning to chelation (Rx only so far), we have seen some great progress in the last 9 months and we are getting better with every round.
I can post for those if they want to hear my sons bio but it would be bits and pieces of our progress that I had just pit together for another board which had asked.

Now my other advice would be for anyone who is looking to chelate their child would be to choose a chelator that would be specific for their child’s Hm burden. But also keep in mind that some children don’t do well with oral or have real bad gut issues and go with transdermal applications.
Also many parents go on to chelate and have to control the “yeast beast “ so many times we have to modify our approach; add yeast protocols back off a while. Address the yeast for some time then continue to plug away with removing metals. Some children just have that rough of a time until they start to heal the gut.
Above is my own personal experience as well as my observation but now id like to give opinion. I would like to add that I do not think it’s a great idea to mix chelators because of their chelation properties. Also when you have a child that is doing so well and a specific chelator there is no reason to change the chelator if it is accomplishing what you set out for it to do. Its just makes too much sense. (Again that is just my opinion)


I do believe, heard and seen parents using chelators and changing them based on the child’s Hm profile.
I also know of parents who have severely toxic children who are aggressively chelation Mercury and lead at the same time alternating chelators on rounds such as DMSA/ALA for one round a month and also DMPS /ALA for the other rounds. This makes sense to me based on what I understand about chelation

Now as far as the NDF and NDF plus I cannot give an experience cause I have not used it. Only heard about it. Currently looking into it to use alongside Rx chelation. Maybe just the off days I dunno yet. But from what I have learned about chelation and through speaking with people who are doing both you cannot compare the amount of metals being chelated with an Rx chelator. And IMO it would take years to get this stuff out at that rate.
From what made me interested was hearing parents who are doing both Rx and NDF together.
So IMO which again is just my opinion I would possibly add this to a protocol after I have already established chelation for some time, know how well my child chelates and have seen progress.

I am just a parent speaking and would like to say to anyone seeking to use the product to listen to ALL the reports those who have used the product WITHOUT Rx chelators those who have used ONLY Rx chelators and those who have done both. Listed to the GOOD the BAD and the UGLY. Do not dismiss anything.
And make yourself an informed choice before doing so. Step back take a look and a breath. Try not to second guess yourself and go with your gut. Cause you are usually right in what you decide for your child.

HTH
Kenny V

Ps. did I do ok Tammi eventho my advice wuz different :?: :wink:


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