Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism.

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mommy4ev
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Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby mommy4ev » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:37 pm

Hello, I am a vivid researcher and I have seen so many mixed reactions to treating yeast. I hear many natural anti-fungals do not work, or the prescription anti-fungals work but then behaviors regress or become worse. I have not started treating yeast in my toddler but I was wondering if it is worth it? He is aggressive, non-verbal, minimal eye contact, stims and is inattentive. He is currently only taking a Ortho Bio probiotic (even though I have not noticed any change), vitamin D (he's deficient) and I just started him on Barleans Omega Swirl. He had a stool test that states: "imbalanced floria" for bacteria with the highest level 2+ (nothing in dysbiosis) and one yeast strand called candida tropicalas 1+. We are waiting on our OATs test. Any pointers will be great!

FatherOf2
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby FatherOf2 » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:01 pm

Yes, worth it. I would recommend to stay away from all antifungals but one, Amphotericin B. You take it orally. It doesn't get absorbed into blood, so it is easy on liver. It just goes through the GI tract like pepto bismol. Yet, it is one of the strongest antifungals, 10x stronger than Nystatin, which would be my second choice. Most DAN doctors would prescribe Diflucan, which is toxic to liver and doesn't kill as many different ueasys as Ampho. I am thinking of doing a 30 day course of Amphotericin B again to see if it reduces stimming.

williams_dad
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby williams_dad » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:17 am

absolutely not worth it, don't do it
killing yeast is the worst thing you can do
all you will end up with is a belly full of drug resistant yeast
http://spectrumsleuth.fr.yuku.com/forums/11/General/General

Nikkie111
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby Nikkie111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:35 am

williams_dad wrote:absolutely not worth it, don't do it
killing yeast is the worst thing you can do
all you will end up with is a belly full of drug resistant yeast

Yes ok but what do you do that is actually working?
I've had success with pretty much everything (viruses, bacteria etc) other than yeast !

jaumeb
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby jaumeb » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:53 am

I've tried the antifungal (nystatin, extracts, foods) approach with little success. I am "fighting" the yeast with a diet of lentils, potatoes, buckwheat, quinoa, some veggies, some wild fish, some meat, extra virgin olive oil and extra virgin coconut oil.

There is also work to do at a psychological level. When someone feels good the inmune system fights the bad yeast/fungus. When someone is stressed/threatened/angry/etc. the inmune system shuts down. The yeast "exploits" this situation by releasing all kinds of psyco-toxics that cause psychological distress.

Nikkie111
Posts: 321
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby Nikkie111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:21 am

jaumeb wrote:I've tried the antifungal (nystatin, extracts, foods) approach with little success. I am "fighting" the yeast with a diet of lentils, potatoes, buckwheat, quinoa, some veggies, some wild fish, some meat, extra virgin olive oil and extra virgin coconut oil.

There is also work to do at a psychological level. When someone feels good the inmune system fights the bad yeast/fungus. When someone is stressed/threatened/angry/etc. the inmune system shuts down. The yeast "exploits" this situation by releasing all kinds of psyco-toxics that cause psychological distress.


Great that this diet worked for you, it probably help the yeast issue for us but quinoa and buckwheat would cause all sort of other issues to our gut

Wrt to immune to fight yeast and other microbial stuff you need TH1 high enough to do its job and herbs we use are helping quite a bit with pretty much everything other than yeast but I guess while other things are getting expelled yeast will always be triggered, it's something I guess we need to wait till it dies ,it's a cycle . But yes immune is the key isn't it? A good immune and none of these cr$p would be present!
I'd absolutely hate to 'kill' stuff!!! I'd rather spend energy and money raising that bl**dy immune!

mommy4ev
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:58 pm

Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby mommy4ev » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:01 am

FatherOf2 wrote:Yes, worth it. I would recommend to stay away from all antifungals but one, Amphotericin B. You take it orally. It doesn't get absorbed into blood, so it is easy on liver. It just goes through the GI tract like pepto bismol. Yet, it is one of the strongest antifungals, 10x stronger than Nystatin, which would be my second choice. Most DAN doctors would prescribe Diflucan, which is toxic to liver and doesn't kill as many different ueasys as Ampho. I am thinking of doing a 30 day course of Amphotericin B again to see if it reduces stimming.


Thank you for your great advice! Did Amphotericin cause die off or cause bacteria/yeast to be more resistant?

mommy4ev
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:58 pm

Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby mommy4ev » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:02 am

williams_dad wrote:absolutely not worth it, don't do it
killing yeast is the worst thing you can do
all you will end up with is a belly full of drug resistant yeast


Thank you! What is your suggestion for fighting it? Have you had any good experience without using antifungals?

mommy4ev
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:58 pm

Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby mommy4ev » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:03 am

jaumeb wrote:I've tried the antifungal (nystatin, extracts, foods) approach with little success. I am "fighting" the yeast with a diet of lentils, potatoes, buckwheat, quinoa, some veggies, some wild fish, some meat, extra virgin olive oil and extra virgin coconut oil.

There is also work to do at a psychological level. When someone feels good the inmune system fights the bad yeast/fungus. When someone is stressed/threatened/angry/etc. the inmune system shuts down. The yeast "exploits" this situation by releasing all kinds of psyco-toxics that cause psychological distress.


Thank, what do you use to increase the immune system?

FatherOf2
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby FatherOf2 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:53 am

mommy4ev wrote:Thank you for your great advice! Did Amphotericin cause die off or cause bacteria/yeast to be more resistant?

There will be a few days within the first 1-2 weeks when the poop is soft and light brown-orange color. But other than that, we never saw anything negative in 3 or 4 times we tried Amphotericin B. And we tried it without any antibiotics added. No bad bacteria taking over, or drug-resistant yeast. But this is all personal. My son has a strong immune system, which makes him less prone to infections. But strong immune is not always good (it means more inflammation). There is also TH1/TH2 immune cell balance which is unique for everyone. Nikkie mentioned it. If you get scared by trying strong antifungals like Amphotericin (which is by the way a natural substance), you can always try milder yeast killers like coconut oil or my favorite MCT oil. Every time we tried MCT oil, my son became very aware and talked more. MCT oil, besides killing some yeast, has anti-epileptic properties (due to ketones, read about it) and cognitive enhancing effects. But, if you buy MCT oil in California, it will have prop 65 attached to it, warning about cancer causing substances. In this case, I think the substance is 1,4-dioxane, which is produced during the refining process of the coconut oil.

Nikkie111
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby Nikkie111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:23 pm

FatherOf2 wrote:
mommy4ev wrote:Thank you for your great advice! Did Amphotericin cause die off or cause bacteria/yeast to be more resistant?

There will be a few days within the first 1-2 weeks when the poop is soft and light brown-orange color. But other than that, we never saw anything negative in 3 or 4 times we tried Amphotericin B. And we tried it without any antibiotics added. No bad bacteria taking over, or drug-resistant yeast. But this is all personal. My son has a strong immune system, which makes him less prone to infections. But strong immune is not always good (it means more inflammation). There is also TH1/TH2 immune cell balance which is unique for everyone. Nikkie mentioned it. If you get scared by trying strong antifungals like Amphotericin (which is by the way a natural substance), you can always try milder yeast killers like coconut oil or my favorite MCT oil. Every time we tried MCT oil, my son became very aware and talked more. MCT oil, besides killing some yeast, has anti-epileptic properties (due to ketones, read about it) and cognitive enhancing effects. But, if you buy MCT oil in California, it will have prop 65 attached to it, warning about cancer causing substances. In this case, I think the substance is 1,4-dioxane, which is produced during the refining process of the coconut oil.

Out of curiosity how do you know his immune is strong? Did you do an immunology panel with Nk, TNF etc?
He has gut infections/bacteria, no yeast and no viruses?

FatherOf2
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby FatherOf2 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:58 pm

Nikkie111 wrote:Out of curiosity how do you know his immune is strong? Did you do an immunology panel with Nk, TNF etc?
He has gut infections/bacteria, no yeast and no viruses?

In almost 8 years (his age) he never got flu. He got cold just once. His neurotipical brother gets cold every 3 months or so, sneezes and coughs for a couple of weeks, and that doesn't infect my autistic son. But he gets seasonal allergies, which is also an indicator of a strong immune system (it overreacts by producing antibodies that attack the allergen). All anti-oxidants and anti-inflammatories are targeting to reduce the hyperactive immune system to reduce inflammation and oxidative stress resulting from it. There was a long discussion here about TH1/TH2 balance and how to tip it with weird treatments like parasites etc.

Grandmother
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby Grandmother » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:16 pm

Here's what cured my granddaughter:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33872

Stool test was negative for anything, even though she had severe bowel problems.  After describing symptoms from a tiny bit of sugar, doctor prescribed a 5 day trial of Nystatin and there was a very noticeable improvement within a day or two, so you should know pretty quickly if it's worth it for your child. 

Have since found out about Katherine Reid.  She's a biochemist who cured her child from autism by eliminating dietary free glutamate and then started a non-profit a couple of years ago to help others, Unblind My Mind.  Since grandchild's nutritionist advised eliminating all additives, including free glutamate, this is also the way my daughter started shopping, except that she also continued on to eliminate things that were not permitted on the SCD diet (potatoes, rice, etc.). 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jJj9W4uF_4

Near the end of her video, she describes how her child reacts to an accidental ingestion of free glutamate, problems with language ability.  My grandchild had lost all speech.  These days with fast food and processed food, it's not an easy diet, but it's the way people used to eat, organic unprocessed food without any additives.  She claims that the majority of children with an autism diagnosis drastically improve within 5 weeks on this diet, so it won't take that long to find out if it helps.  Last I read, it was 74 out of 75 children.  You also have to check everything for free glutamate, such as toothpaste, supplements, vitamins, etc.

Hope this helps.

FatherOf2
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby FatherOf2 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:54 pm

Reducing glutamate is very important. I proved it to myself after seeing great results from Lamictal, which blocks glutamate release as part of its anti-epileptic action. If you look at my list of things that help recovery from brain injuries, most substances there have neuroprotective effect from high glutamate:
- Magnesium (blocks glutamate receptors)
- Creatine https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15672208
- MCT oil https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1865572/
- Resveratrol https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23459926
- Pycnagenol https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10653482

Besides glutamate-free diet, Lamictal (blocking release of glutamate), Magnisium/Namenda (both block glutamate receptors), and Clonazepam (speeds up glutamate break down), I couldn't find in literature any other ways to directly affect glutamate levels. But there are several natural ways to increase GABA, not all of which are effective.

mommy4ev
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby mommy4ev » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:07 pm

FatherOf2 wrote:
Nikkie111 wrote:Out of curiosity how do you know his immune is strong? Did you do an immunology panel with Nk, TNF etc?
He has gut infections/bacteria, no yeast and no viruses?

In almost 8 years (his age) he never got flu. He got cold just once. His neurotipical brother gets cold every 3 months or so, sneezes and coughs for a couple of weeks, and that doesn't infect my autistic son. But he gets seasonal allergies, which is also an indicator of a strong immune system (it overreacts by producing antibodies that attack the allergen). All anti-oxidants and anti-inflammatories are targeting to reduce the hyperactive immune system to reduce inflammation and oxidative stress resulting from it. There was a long discussion here about TH1/TH2 balance and how to tip it with weird treatments like parasites etc.


That's very interesting about a strong immune system! I have to really think about that for my toddler...he has had several colds that we just ride out, and he does get seasonal allergies when he goes outside. However, we are in central Texas and the Molds/pollens are very bad. So how do you "calm" down his immune system if it's overactive?

FatherOf2
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby FatherOf2 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:21 am

Our local hospital immunologist treats autistic children first with corticosteroids. These can only be given for a short time. If they respond, he puts then long-term on immunosuppressant Cellcept. He applies this treatment only to kids with tested PANDAS (antibodies to strep are present in blood). Thsee antibodies are only present in acute state, i.e. when a child was just exposed to strep. Once PANDAS becomes chronic (typically 6 months after acute state), he uses IVIG.I think both immunosuppressants and IVIG are very dangerous. They are nonselective and can result in permanent changes where you didn't expect. I've read a story of a boy who received IVIG, developed an allergy to peanuts within a week and died or almost died after his unsuspected parents gave him peanut butter.

I wouldn't mess with the immune system (and vaccines are messing with it). I would advise to try fish oil, because it is antiinflammatory, and antioxidants. HBOT is also anti-inflammatory. LDN creme modulates immune system and is relatively safe. It even helps some multiple sclerosis patients. There are more and more indications that Alzheimers may also be related to immune system.

By the way, an old drug Suramin is being researched at UCSD to treat autistic children. Its action is based on turning the cell danger response off. The drug, just like corticosteroids, cannot be given imdefinetly.

mommy4ev
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Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby mommy4ev » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:34 am

williams_dad wrote:absolutely not worth it, don't do it
killing yeast is the worst thing you can do
all you will end up with is a belly full of drug resistant yeast


So what do you recommend that works best for your child? I would love to know thanks!

mommy4ev
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:58 pm

Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby mommy4ev » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:38 am

FatherOf2 wrote:Our local hospital immunologist treats autistic children first with corticosteroids. These can only be given for a short time. If they respond, he puts then long-term on immunosuppressant Cellcept. He applies this treatment only to kids with tested PANDAS (antibodies to strep are present in blood). Thsee antibodies are only present in acute state, i.e. when a child was just exposed to strep. Once PANDAS becomes chronic (typically 6 months after acute state), he uses IVIG.I think both immunosuppressants and IVIG are very dangerous. They are nonselective and can result in permanent changes where you didn't expect. I've read a story of a boy who received IVIG, developed an allergy to peanuts within a week and died or almost died after his unsuspected parents gave him peanut butter.

I wouldn't mess with the immune system (and vaccines are messing with it). I would advise to try fish oil, because it is antiinflammatory, and antioxidants. HBOT is also anti-inflammatory. LDN creme modulates immune system and is relatively safe. It even helps some multiple sclerosis patients. There are more and more indications that Alzheimers may also be related to immune system.

By the way, an old drug Suramin is being researched at UCSD to treat autistic children. Its action is based on turning the cell danger response off. The drug, just like corticosteroids, cannot be given imdefinetly.


Thank you again for the pointers! I am sure I will ask for repeated advice from you as we start this process. His MAPS doctor did prescribe him LDN cream, and I have it filled and sitting on my counter. I am reluctant to use it, I just do not want to overwhelm my little guy with numerous supplements. How soon should I see a difference with it? Is it worth trying? I really want to only introduce one thing at a time to see an effect or a lack there of...

Nikkie111
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby Nikkie111 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:39 am

FatherOf2 wrote:
Nikkie111 wrote:Out of curiosity how do you know his immune is strong? Did you do an immunology panel with Nk, TNF etc?
He has gut infections/bacteria, no yeast and no viruses?

In almost 8 years (his age) he never got flu. He got cold just once. His neurotipical brother gets cold every 3 months or so, sneezes and coughs for a couple of weeks, and that doesn't infect my autistic son. But he gets seasonal allergies, which is also an indicator of a strong immune system (it overreacts by producing antibodies that attack the allergen). All anti-oxidants and anti-inflammatories are targeting to reduce the hyperactive immune system to reduce inflammation and oxidative stress resulting from it. There was a long discussion here about TH1/TH2 balance and how to tip it with weird treatments like parasites etc.

Immunology is tricky and unless you test certain cytokines it's difficult to know the situation with you child
My 4,5 yo is EXACTLY like yours as to he never gets colds (since his flu shot at 2). This certainly doesn't mean that immune is strong! It could mean the opposite actually that an underline chronic virus has made them TH2 dominant and has shut down TH1 hence any cold coming their way is staying deep in cells and no one is fighting it
For us the Cd57 test proved just that, it was very low and wasn't fighting anything. So by constantly giving anti inflammatory supplements I'm enhancing the Th2 dominance
The key is balance. You want Th1 cytokines the attack and create the inflammation than kills the bacteria virus etc and you want the th2 cytokines to cool down and repair
So yea antiinflamatories are great but in combination with anything that makes th1 strong
If kiddies have bacteria in their gut there is no way immune is strong
Only now that with certain herbs and mushrooms we make th1 Work again I finally see another breakthrough in my child and unbelievably he got his first proper cold and immune response (fainted, loose stools etc) just few days ago (along with his best behaviour)

Hence reason we stopped valtrex it was shifting th1 to th2 and focusing on natural Antivirals
This is interesting http://www.lymebook.com/lyme-disease-nk ... ller-cells
I wouldnt focus on the Lyme just how immune works

FatherOf2
Posts: 1590
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: Is yeast WORTH fighting? New to ASD!

Postby FatherOf2 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:42 pm

Nikkie111 wrote:Immunology is tricky and unless you test certain cytokines it's difficult to know the situation with you child
My 4,5 yo is EXACTLY like yours as to he never gets colds (since his flu shot at 2). This certainly doesn't mean that immune is strong! It could mean the opposite actually that an underline chronic virus has made them TH2 dominant and has shut down TH1 hence any cold coming their way is staying deep in cells and no one is fighting it
For us the Cd57 test proved just that, it was very low and wasn't fighting anything. So by constantly giving anti inflammatory supplements I'm enhancing the Th2 dominance
The key is balance. You want Th1 cytokines the attack and create the inflammation than kills the bacteria virus etc and you want the th2 cytokines to cool down and repair
So yea antiinflamatories are great but in combination with anything that makes th1 strong
If kiddies have bacteria in their gut there is no way immune is strong
Only now that with certain herbs and mushrooms we make th1 Work again I finally see another breakthrough in my child and unbelievably he got his first proper cold and immune response (fainted, loose stools etc) just few days ago (along with his best behaviour)

Hence reason we stopped valtrex it was shifting th1 to th2 and focusing on natural Antivirals
This is interesting http://www.lymebook.com/lyme-disease-nk ... ller-cells
I wouldnt focus on the Lyme just how immune works

Thanks, Nikkie. I am reading about the CD57 test, and apparently it is not accurate, and many doctors don't even prescribe it. Also, I read the following definitions of TH1 and TH2:

Th1: Th1 cells are involved in what is called “cell-mediated” immunity, which usually deals with infections by viruses and certain bacteria. They are the body’s first line of defense against pathogens that get inside our cells. They tend to be pro-inflammatory (produce IL-2 and TNF-beta) and are involved in the development of organ-specific autoimmune disease.

Th2: Th2 cells are involved in what is called “humoral-mediated” immunity, which deals with bacteria, toxins, allergens, and parasites. They are responsible for stimulating the production of antibodies in response to extracellular pathogens (those found in blood or other body fluids). They tend not to be inflammatory (produce IL-4/5/10/13),and are involved in systemic autoimmune disease and other chronic conditions.

I think most researchers agree that autistic children have a dominated pro-inflammatory TH1 response due to viruses or vaccines thus the weird treatment suggestions like adding parasites to tip the balance towards TH2. I think it is too simplistic to describe the immune system as a whole simply as a balance of TH1 and TH2. Such description is non-specific. But I may be wrong. The DAN doctor we go to for the past 4 years has his own sons with autism (you can probably guess who I am talking about). Just to stop guessing of what is going on in their brains, he did a lumbar puncture test on them. Just thinking about this test and how it is done make me shake. The test showed elevated pro-inflammatory cytokines, specifically TNF, which point to neuroinflammation. I am not suggesting that my son is like his, and I don't know them well anyway. But, neuroinflammation theory fits well with my son for the following reasons:

1. Neuroinflammation (either due to brain injury, or immune response) results in increased glutamate and abnormal EEG or even seizures. My son appears to have it, and I am seeing great results from reducing glutamate.

2. I saw great improvements in my son from HBOT, which is supposed to reduce inflammation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2562533/).

3. I also saw improvements in my son when he had fever once. He became totally like normal that day. This is quite common among autistic children. The theory is that fever triggers body to produce anti-inflammatory cytokines. Some even suggest treatments designed to elevate body temperature fooling the body into thinking that it has fever and produce anti-inflammatory cytokines. Dr. Naviuax, who is conducting the Suramin study at UCSD, said that most autistic children generally improve in summer months for this reason. Mine is like that.


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