What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism.

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zoewang
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:38 pm

What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby zoewang » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:03 pm

I am new to biomesical treatment, so so far only tried some consulting sessions for my son, and fish oil.

He is a physical healthy boy, 7 year, no seizure, no infection, very athletic. I am not sure if he falls on Asperger or ADHD, here are the main symptoms:
# physical or verbal aggression when upset
# impulsive and intense
# forgetful on everything
# violence thoughts and languages
# social but tend to behave silly
# do not follow instructions the first time

Anyone on the same boat? We recently just had a bunch of labs done and the summary from the MD are:
# increased oxidative stress
# Altered folate metablism
# Suboptimal methylation
# Mercury higher bound (not sure if from the fish oil)

What TOP options I should try at this moment?
I don't see people talk about biofeedback - does it work trying on top of biomedical treatment?

zoewang
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:38 pm

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby zoewang » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:51 pm

Would really appreciate any help or comments for a new comer. 8)

FatherOf2
Posts: 1591
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby FatherOf2 » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:26 pm

My son is also 7yo and also has anger and impulsivity issues. I would recommend two paths: first is to help him immediately to reduce anger and impulsivity with some medication (need to visit a psychiatrist), and second, treat him long-term with supplements, diet, etc.

First path:

1. Tennex/Guanfacine - this is much safer than antipsychotics, just need to dose it carefully because too much can cause sedation or even more irritability. It was developed as a blood pressure medication, but then doctors discovered that it helps with impulsivity. You start with 0.25mg in the evening, then increase to 0.5mg in the evening, then add 0.25mg in the morning. If he is too sleepy during a day, then eliminate the 0.25mg dose in the morning and increase the evening dose to 0.75mg or 1mg. My son has been taking 0.75mg in the evening and 0.25mg in the morning. Intuniv is a slow release version of Guanfacine. It never worked for my son, he actually became more aggressive on Intunive.

2. Trileptal helped us a lot with self-injurious behaviors and irritability in general. It is a mood stabilizer, used in bipolar patients, but also an anti-seizure med. You don't need to have seizures to get it prescribed. Almost no side effects. My son is taking 150mg 2x/day, but would probably benefit from increasing it to 300mg 2x/day.

3. If nothing above works, then the heavy hitters, which are guaranteed to work, antipsychotics Risperdal or Aripiprazole. Risperdal is the first choice of most psychiatrists, but has some side effects. Some doctors think that Aripiprazole is better, with less side effects and actually increases cognition.


Second path (this may take a while of trial and error):

1. Eliminate anything that increases dopamine, such as sugar, coffee, herbs, meds, etc. Antipsychotic meds Risperdal or Aripiprazole block dopamine action at D2 receptors.

2. Eliminate all herbs and supplements that inhibit MAO-A enzyme activity, including B6 and zinc. This enzyme is responsible for breaking down neurotransmitters. A genetic mutation that slows this enzyme is known as a 'Warrior Gene', which leads to aggressive behaviors, rages, etc.

3. Eliminate all herbs and supplements that reduce blood sugar levels. Herbs known as adaptogens, such as Ashwagandha, act by reducing blood sugar, which can cause irritability.

4. Try Bacopa. We started it last week and saw less behaviors. It promotes blood flow to the brain and better memory.


To summarize: based on your description of your son, Tennex + Bacopa might the right starting combo for him to reduce anger and improve memory. I would stay away from chelation (caused huge anger issues in my son) or treating methylation (methyl donors also increase neurotransitter production, which can lead to more irritability).

autismnhusa
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:14 pm

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby autismnhusa » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:57 am

I might stumble onto a simple traditional Chinese medicine to fix my son. It's like running a full circle. The western medicine did not work regardless whatever scientific theory is behind it.

CdB
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby CdB » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:24 am

autismnhusa wrote:I might stumble onto a simple traditional Chinese medicine to fix my son. It's like running a full circle. The western medicine did not work regardless whatever scientific theory is behind it.


What in Traditional Chinese Medicine did work for you.

raun cesar
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:17 am

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby raun cesar » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:12 am

did you have any success with Chinese medicine @autismnhusa ?

Jillh
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Jillh » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:07 pm

FatherOf2 wrote:My son is also 7yo and also has anger and impulsivity issues. I would recommend two paths: first is to help him immediately to reduce anger and impulsivity with some medication (need to visit a psychiatrist), and second, treat him long-term with supplements, diet, etc.

First path:

1. Tennex/Guanfacine - this is much safer than antipsychotics, just need to dose it carefully because too much can cause sedation or even more irritability. It was developed as a blood pressure medication, but then doctors discovered that it helps with impulsivity. You start with 0.25mg in the evening, then increase to 0.5mg in the evening, then add 0.25mg in the morning. If he is too sleepy during a day, then eliminate the 0.25mg dose in the morning and increase the evening dose to 0.75mg or 1mg. My son has been taking 0.75mg in the evening and 0.25mg in the morning. Intuniv is a slow release version of Guanfacine. It never worked for my son, he actually became more aggressive on Intunive.

2. Trileptal helped us a lot with self-injurious behaviors and irritability in general. It is a mood stabilizer, used in bipolar patients, but also an anti-seizure med. You don't need to have seizures to get it prescribed. Almost no side effects. My son is taking 150mg 2x/day, but would probably benefit from increasing it to 300mg 2x/day.

3. If nothing above works, then the heavy hitters, which are guaranteed to work, antipsychotics Risperdal or Aripiprazole. Risperdal is the first choice of most psychiatrists, but has some side effects. Some doctors think that Aripiprazole is better, with less side effects and actually increases cognition.


Second path (this may take a while of trial and error):

1. Eliminate anything that increases dopamine, such as sugar, coffee, herbs, meds, etc. Antipsychotic meds Risperdal or Aripiprazole block dopamine action at D2 receptors.

2. Eliminate all herbs and supplements that inhibit MAO-A enzyme activity, including B6 and zinc. This enzyme is responsible for breaking down neurotransmitters. A genetic mutation that slows this enzyme is known as a 'Warrior Gene', which leads to aggressive behaviors, rages, etc.

3. Eliminate all herbs and supplements that reduce blood sugar levels. Herbs known as adaptogens, such as Ashwagandha, act by reducing blood sugar, which can cause irritability.

4. Try Bacopa. We started it last week and saw less behaviors. It promotes blood flow to the brain and better memory.


To summarize: based on your description of your son, Tennex + Bacopa might the right starting combo for him to reduce anger and improve memory. I would stay away from chelation (caused huge anger issues in my son) or treating methylation (methyl donors also increase neurotransitter production, which can lead to more irritability).



I just have to say I throughly enjoy reading your posts. You are so knowledgeable in so many of these areas. I am always taking down notes from you even when the original post isn't mine. Just wanted to thank you for always taking to time to provide a very well thought out response:)

How do you give the Bacopa? My son is 8 and very unfocused and hyperactive. But I'm not filling the rx for stimulants our Dr gave us for fear it will ramp up anxiety.

FatherOf2
Posts: 1591
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby FatherOf2 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:13 am

Jillh wrote:I just have to say I throughly enjoy reading your posts. You are so knowledgeable in so many of these areas. I am always taking down notes from you even when the original post isn't mine. Just wanted to thank you for always taking to time to provide a very well thought out response:)

How do you give the Bacopa? My son is 8 and very unfocused and hyperactive. But I'm not filling the rx for stimulants our Dr gave us for fear it will ramp up anxiety.

Thank you for your kind words. We give Bacopa in a capsule (300mg per capsule). We open it and pore half into a food. It has a strong taste of tea. We are just giving half a capsule in the morning. I read that some people also give it at night. Over the past 3 weeks, we noticed a slight improvement in behaviors. The focus is still poor. For about 2 weeks we have been trying Bumetanide, 0.5mg 2x/day (he is 8yo, 23kg). So far nothing, not even frequent peeing. We will probably stop Bumetanide this weekend and increase Bacopa to 1 capsule/day. If nothing happens, I will be trying Vinpocetine and then Chinese Scullcap. If those 2 fail, I am going back to Piracetam and Galantamine to boost focus and cognition. Focus is the biggest problem. He can do stuff, but just can't stay on task.

Stimulants. I just don't like the idea of giving meth to my son. I almost convinced myself that may be at low doses it is OK, and perhaps my son would benefit from a dopamine boost, to give him focus and motivation to finish his school tasks. But then I came across an article which described how meth tablets Pervitin were freely distributed to Nazy soldiers during WWII to increase their alertness and endurance. "Meth undoubtedly played a role in the Nazi’s ruthless and murderous rampage, at first flooding their brains with serotonin and dopamine, then later (when it began to wear off) sending them into fits of severe irritability, anger, and rage." That is not something I want to see in my son, who is already having issues with behaviors.

Nikkie111
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Nikkie111 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:44 am

FatherOf2 wrote:Thank you for your kind words. We give Bacopa in a capsule (300mg per capsule). We open it and pore half into a food. It has a strong taste of tea. We are just giving half a capsule in the morning. I read that some people also give it at night. Over the past 3 weeks, we noticed a slight improvement in behaviors. The focus is still poor. For about 2 weeks we have been trying Bumetanide, 0.5mg 2x/day (he is 8yo, 23kg). So far nothing, not even frequent peeing. We will probably stop Bumetanide this weekend and increase Bacopa to 1 capsule/day. If nothing happens, I will be trying Vinpocetine and then Chinese Scullcap. If those 2 fail, I am going back to Piracetam and Galantamine to boost focus and cognition. Focus is the biggest problem. He can do stuff, but just can't stay on task.

Fo2 which brand Bacopa did you get? There are reports that some makes make kids hyper and some do the opposite. Before giving these stuff to my son, I started taking Bacopa myself with Aniracetam (nootropic much more effective than piracetam) just to try it out..it didn't work instantly but after few rounds, I gave a bl**dy good presentation (I have focus issues as well). I did get a headache though that kind of went away with some choline
re Chinese skullcap it'd be interesting to see what your experience will be especially as it might tackle any virus issues he might have...

Jillh
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Jillh » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:59 am

Has anyone heard of or used the brand KeenMind? That's what I was looking at since it's been used in clinical trials. I have no clue which brand or in what form I should buy!

FatherOf2
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Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby FatherOf2 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:33 am

Nikkie111 wrote:Fo2 which brand Bacopa did you get? There are reports that some makes make kids hyper and some do the opposite. Before giving these stuff to my son, I started taking Bacopa myself with Aniracetam (nootropic much more effective than piracetam) just to try it out..it didn't work instantly but after few rounds, I gave a bl**dy good presentation (I have focus issues as well). I did get a headache though that kind of went away with some choline
re Chinese skullcap it'd be interesting to see what your experience will be especially as it might tackle any virus issues he might have...

I am using Doctor's Best Bacopa with Synapsa. Piracetam, Aniracetam and some other nootropics are great. Not only increase focus but reduce seizures (I think mostly myoclonic). What brand of Aniracetam did you use?

Jillh
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:15 pm

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Jillh » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:41 am

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4690059/

There's one of the studies KeenMind was used in. Are there certain things to look for or steer clear of when choosing a Bacopa brand? Thanks!

Nikkie111
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Nikkie111 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:44 am

FatherOf2 wrote:
Nikkie111 wrote:Fo2 which brand Bacopa did you get? There are reports that some makes make kids hyper and some do the opposite. Before giving these stuff to my son, I started taking Bacopa myself with Aniracetam (nootropic much more effective than piracetam) just to try it out..it didn't work instantly but after few rounds, I gave a bl**dy good presentation (I have focus issues as well). I did get a headache though that kind of went away with some choline
re Chinese skullcap it'd be interesting to see what your experience will be especially as it might tackle any virus issues he might have...

I am using Doctor's Best Bacopa with Synapsa. Piracetam, Aniracetam and some other nootropics are great. Not only increase focus but reduce seizures (I think mostly myoclonic). What brand of Aniracetam did you use?


I used Intellimeds.net supposed to be pure, premium but very expensive. Problem with aniracetam is that it lasts for couple of hours only and has to be taken with something fatty (I take it with omega 3). Where did you get your piracetam from? Have you thought about giving aniracetam?

FatherOf2
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Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby FatherOf2 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:34 am

Nikkie111 wrote:I used Intellimeds.net supposed to be pure, premium but very expensive. Problem with aniracetam is that it lasts for couple of hours only and has to be taken with something fatty (I take it with omega 3). Where did you get your piracetam from? Have you thought about giving aniracetam?

I bought Piracetam as Nootropil from a UK pharmacy, shipped to USA. I looked at aniracetam, and I don't remember why I decided not to use it. I liked the safety profile of Piracetam. It is well researched even for autism in children and approved in several countries. Other forms of racetams are not as well known. But they are attractive because you need a much smaller dose. Piracetam is very bitter and you need at least 800mg dose - a horse pill.
Last edited by FatherOf2 on Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jillh
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Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Jillh » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:25 pm

Do you give Bacopa in capsule form or open it and mix with a liquid? My son cannot swallow capsules and I've read that Bacopa tastes pretty awful.

FatherOf2
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Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby FatherOf2 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:47 am

Jillh wrote:Do you give Bacopa in capsule form or open it and mix with a liquid? My son cannot swallow capsules and I've read that Bacopa tastes pretty awful.

I open a capsule and mix half in the food. It tastes like strong tea. Not many foods or drinks can hide the taste. If your son drinks tea, you can mix it in there. I don't have any other ideas. I knew about Bacopa since my son was 4, but I couldn't give it to him because he didn't tolerate the taste until now, when he turned 8.

Jillh
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Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Jillh » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:13 am

Have you heard of the brand Baynan Botanicals? They sell a liquid Bacopa, but they also have a blend called "Focus Blend" that combines Bacopa with some others things like Ginkgo.

FatherOf2
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Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby FatherOf2 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:35 am

Jillh wrote:Have you heard of the brand Baynan Botanicals? They sell a liquid Bacopa, but they also have a blend called "Focus Blend" that combines Bacopa with some others things like Ginkgo.

I haven't heard of Banyan and just looked them up. If I am looking for an herbal supplement, I try to buy the standardized extracts, which contain info of show how much of useful stuff in them, like Bacosides in the case of Bacopa. I think that such standardized extracts are cleaner than simple herbal preparations, which can contain environmental pollutants - my major concern with herbs. It is even better to find the brand that is not only standardized, but also have been used in clinical tries or research so that there is a data of its efficacy and side effects. With Banyan I don't see any info on the amount of bacosides, which to me means it is not standardized. It also contains around 50% alcohol, which is a lot and can definitely affect a child especially considering that a typical dose is 30 drops. I looked at their focus extract and didn't like that it contains Gotu Kola and Licorice, one is toxic to liver and the other to kidneys. Licorice can also cause hypertension, hypokalamia, and even heart failure and death.

Jillh
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Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby Jillh » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:59 am

Thanks so much for your insight!! I think I'm going to go with KeenMind. It's been used in a number of clinical trials and I was able to very easily contact the company to ask questions:)

FatherOf2
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Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: What work best for intense, impulsive, verbal or phsycal aggression kids?

Postby FatherOf2 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:27 pm

Jillh wrote:Thanks so much for your insight!! I think I'm going to go with KeenMind. It's been used in a number of clinical trials and I was able to very easily contact the company to ask questions:)

That is a good one, contains CDRI 08 extract with 55% of bacosides. Synapsa is claimed to be the same as CRI 08, just a marketing name for the US market: http://smartdrugsmarts.com/episode-126-bacopa-monnieri/, 16th minute of the interview. This doctor says a full 300mg capsule is usually taken by adults, half of capsule is given to a child. Here is another interview with Prof Con Stough: https://www.nootropedia.com/con-stough-modafinil-ginseng-bacopa-nootropic-comparison/, where he talks about cognitive effects of Panax Ginseng and Bacopa combo. Bacopa helps more with memory whereas Panax Ginseng with attention.

I think nootropics can help autistic children a lot, and Bacopa is just one of them. I checked my notes on synthesized nootrpopics - racetams. Piracetam is still the best, with 5hrs half life, enhancing action of AED's, anti-anxiety action, 6 months of tolerance-free, and very low toxicity. Phenylpiracetam is even stronger in both cognition improvement and anti-seizure effect, but tolerance builds up within a week. Aniracetam unfortunately has short half life and apparently counteracts AED's (may cause seizures). There is also Oxyracetam and Pramiracetam, which I know little about. My observation is that 1/2 capsule of Bacopa (160mg of Synapsa) has much weaker effect than 600-800mg of Piracetam.


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