Recovered? Nearly recovered? What does it mean?

Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism.

Moderator: ModeratorBill

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:42 am

I have to say that I haven't read all your posts but for the most part you seem to be degrading everything anyone is talking about.


Degrading? Where? I have been asking questions and requesting clarification. I'm sure that there are plenty of parents interested in the answers, but many are afraid to ask for fear of offending listmates or docs on the board.

Are you a parent or a professional of some sort? As you keep asking in this thread about whether Dr. Neubrander is keeping data, I am thinking you are a professional who is against biomed??


I am a parent and a professional (but not a medical professional). Why would asking about data be an indication that one is anti-anything? It is just a question seeking an objective answer, since so much of what we read is anecdotal.

Frankly, it is just as curious to me that you haven't asked these questions. It is just not my nature to blindly follow, I ask a lot of questions. I think most parents are at least a little curious about the answers, even if they didn't post the questions.

Winnie

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:55 am

Momtomatthew:
I don't think Winnie's posts are degrading at all, she (or he) is asking some questions that seem very legitimate to me. I don't understand why anyone would get defensive or offended over those questions.

For me, I wouldn't mind at all if my son needs B12 shots or whatever else lifelong, if that's what it takes to help him lead a full life. I know nobody knows this for sure, since the biomeds haven't been around long enough to see the outcomes in adults. I am very interested in Dr. N's clinic's experience and I hope Rick will post more statistical details. There seem to be a lot of semantics involved here, but losing their ADOS diagnosis seems pretty compelling stuff.
Up until today, the only recovery stories I heard/read involved kids who (mostly ABA-ized) became "indistinguishable" and none of them needed further intervention (even if some had biomeds at some points).
The concept of lost gains, and backsliding from recovery to autism should biomedical treatment be stopped I'm hearing for the first time, it's a different paradigm from what I've read so far, and I'm interested in other people's experiences. I've only attended one DAN! conference over 1 year ago, so I'm sure there is new stuff out, but I remember one of the speakers (I think Dr. McC) saying that interventions can probably stop once the child has detoxed and healed gut etc.
For us, stopping supplements (due to running out mostly) has never made any difference, that includes the B12 shots, but then again, we never had "recovery" either :( . My son has periods of standstill and more "autistic" behaviors (mostly repetition/perseveration), alternating with times of progress, but I noticed that once a skill is truly mastered, we don't lose it, even during regression, and don't have to go back and reteach.

Alex's mom

Leslie
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:37 am

Postby Leslie » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:02 am

I tend to agree with Alex's mom (and the others who said the same thing) it doesn't scare me at all to think that JW may have to take supplements for the rest of his life. And (I think someone else said this also) what does scare me is that my son may never be able to live on his own, go to college, have a family, or any of the other things a "normal" person would be able to do and enjoy. I have heard recovery stories, some from strictly ABA and others from biomed with a combo of ABA and even a couple of straight biomed (although these children began supplements starting under age 2, much younger than my son). I hope that we find a "cure" in my sons lifetime, although doubtful.

I would define cured as no symptoms of autism left in either mind nor body which would be perceived by the public or felt by my son (and also no required interventions to keep this state). I would define recovered as no symptoms of autism present that could be perceived by the social world (although interventions may be required.) For example, my son has huge problems with empathy, he has no idea what his actions could cause on another persons emotional state nor does he seem to mind when another child right next to him is sad. So for cured I would say that an immediate, subconsious (that is not how to spell that) reaction of sympathy would occur when he saw someone crying. For recovered, that he would show sympathy to a crying person although he may have to actually think of the process: someone is crying = someone is sad = I should show compassion for their emotional state. Does that make sense?

My views on recovery will probably change over time as I begin to learn more about autism and more about my son, but I think my defintion of cured will remain the same. I don't think I will find a cure for my son in his lifetime, but I do think recovery is possible, although since their is no perfect solution yet I am willing to try anything and everything to make sure that I give him the best shot he's got at a normal life.

Leslie
Mother to 4 year old JW, my little angel!

Leslie
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:37 am

Postby Leslie » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:08 am

I tend to agree with Alex's mom (and the others who said the same thing) it doesn't scare me at all to think that JW may have to take supplements for the rest of his life. And (I think someone else said this also) what does scare me is that my son may never be able to live on his own, go to college, have a family, or any of the other things a "normal" person would be able to do and enjoy. I have heard recovery stories, some from strictly ABA and others from biomed with a combo of ABA and even a couple of straight biomed (although these children began supplements starting under age 2, much younger than my son). I hope that we find a "cure" in my sons lifetime, although doubtful.

I would define cured as no symptoms of autism left in either mind nor body which would be perceived by the public or felt by my son (and also no required interventions to keep this state). I would define recovered as no symptoms of autism present that could be perceived by the social world (although interventions may be required.) For example, my son has huge problems with empathy, he has no idea what his actions could cause on another persons emotional state nor does he seem to mind when another child right next to him is sad. So for cured I would say that an immediate, subconsious (that is not how to spell that) reaction of sympathy would occur when he saw someone crying. For recovered, that he would show sympathy to a crying person although he may have to actually think of the process: someone is crying = someone is sad = I should show compassion for their emotional state. Does that make sense?

My views on recovery will probably change over time as I begin to learn more about autism and more about my son, but I think my defintion of cured will remain the same. I don't think I will find a cure for my son in his lifetime, but I do think recovery is possible, although since their is no perfect solution yet I am willing to try anything and everything to make sure that I give him the best shot he's got at a normal life.

Leslie
Mother to 4 year old JW, my little angel!

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:53 am

I tend to agree with Alex's mom (and the others who said the same thing) it doesn't scare me at all to think that JW may have to take supplements for the rest of his life.


I probably should have worded my comment differently -- I certainly wouldn't mind my child taking vitamins or supplements to "remain recovered." The concept of continuing treatment lest your child regress back into autism is scary, I guess because this is the first time I have heard it. It is hard to imagine that there is enough longitudinal data yet to support that notion.

I don't think I will find a cure for my son in his lifetime, but I do think recovery is possible


I feel the same, I tend to think there is just so much left to know about autism before a cure is found...but recovery, yes

Winnie

lulu

sub types

Postby lulu » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:23 am

Anonymous wrote:
I would love an explanation for kids who just "recover" without intervention. My 10yr old would fit rick's description of "recovered" even though he has never had any therapy at all, biomed or otherwise!
He didn't speak a word till past 4yrs old, although made lots of noises, then after echolalia we got scripting and now completely normal conversation.


Hi Vicky,

I think that is very interesting stuff -- especially since your son did not begin speaking until later. I have wondered the same. It would be nice to have more info on what may be "sub-types" of ASD so that we know more about best bets for treatment protocols (if any in your case!)

Winnie



at the chelating kids forum we are trying to get intrest of parents in trying to find the most common links to start our own little categorization and subsets which may or may not cross slighly within another group and find out from those parents what treatements they have done which worked and ones which havent. a bit of a start that is a looong way off from the real scientific research out there!!!!

Vicky
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:51 pm

Postby Vicky » Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:20 am

Lulu, my oldests story wouldn't be much use to that board because we quite literally didn't do anything, unless you count fish oils, infact being as he has a younger brother who is very profound he probably gets far less input than even a regular child.
His story is interesting though, language was after 4yrs old, he had all the lining things up, insistance on sameness, routines, obsessions etc, etc and he has just moved onwards and upwards through the spectrum, he now has a firm group of friends where until 9yrs old he had never had any, but I would insist he isn't cured of his dx there are things that seperate him from his peer group, things like tying shoe laces, telling the time etc, but that is all small fry to the problems he did have and his brother still has.
My youngest is now 8yrs and I think with age the gap widens, you just know there will be no spontaneous moving up the spectrum.
What I would say though about therapy of any sort, for me personally I only really sit up and take huge notice of improvements after 4yrs old because my sons story may be unusual but it is proof kids may have moved up anyway at this age, and maybe his story is not that unusual, we really still know so little about autism in general, what might be of interest though is my oldest boy is far less food sensitive than his brother and has a normal working digestive system, his brother has the guts from hell, which suggests for us at least the gut, candida, dysbosis etc all seem to play a part in how "autistic" my boys are.
Vicky :? :? :?

sashasmom
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Postby sashasmom » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:14 am

Anonymous wrote:
So, as this is the definition of disease, what is autism???


I have always regarded autism as a developmental disorder.

Are you implying that you have a "cure" for the autism "disease?"

Winnie
P.S. Since you are online, would you mind addressing some of my questions? Thanks.


Winnie,

It seems as if you already know the answers to all of your questions but you want to ask them to keep heat going on the board. There are ways of posting nicely and ways of posting that make people feel you are trying to stir up controversy. The way it comes across is that you just want to stir up controversy however that may be wrong....it's just the way you come off in my personal opinion.

Rick and Dr. Neubrander run a practice. Of course they keep up with their data and research. That was just an ignorant question. They are not obligated to give you any information. Rick is on this board to answer questions for concerned parents not someone trying to stir up trouble. And I only say that from other threads you have posted on b/c anything anyone has to say you disagree and start a posting argument. We don't want to lose Rick's knowledge on this board b/c of a trouble maker.

I'm sure I'll get some lashing from you about this but that's ok. We need to keep this board civilized. The questions you have asked have been addressed on this board several times. That is what the search feature is for. I'm not saying that it's improper to ask what a recovered child is and will they take supplements forever but that is not what you are asking. You aren't really asking anything. Most everyone who has their child on the DAN! protocol has or should have read Dr. McCandless' book and we all know that some kids may have to stay on supplements forever. Big deal at least they'll be healthy and probably live a longer life and not get sick as much. My 15 month old child takes just about all the same supplements as my ASD son takes. Maybe you should focus on your child getting recovered instead of arguing and when the time comes you can decide if he/she needs to stay on biomedical forever. Most of the time it is a parents trial and error that helps the child since most DAN! appointments are far and few. I think you're making a big argument over something that should have been small.

JMO...

-Crystal

momtoMatthew
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Postby momtoMatthew » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:16 am

:)
Last edited by momtoMatthew on Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rlneub
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:37 pm

Postby rlneub » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:56 am

Ok, this will be my last say on this subject.

Each month, we get patients who upon being tested by a develpemental ped, neurologist, etc get an official pronouncement of no trace of ASD



That would be compelling data -- do you keep data on this? If so, the evidence might be helpful in determining which ASD children are best candidates or responders for your treatment.

Are these patients who perhaps still have a diagnosis of some sort (just not ASD) or are they officially pronounced "normal?" Do you know if the professionals finding no trace of autism were the same as the professionals who originally diagnosed the condition on the child? What sorts of tests were used? It would be helpful to know so that there is some standardization of "recovery" criteria.


Yes we keep stats on our kids. Some of our kids are examined by the same dev ped or neuro and some parents decide they do not want a biased opinion and go elsewhere and some parents move and are forced to get another. The official Dx is no signs of ASD/Autism/PDD, but some of the kids have speech delay. Have you watched any of our recovered videos? The parents tell the Dx they recieve if they have an official Dx. Many parents try to delay going back to get reevaluated as when the label comes off the services and funding for speech/OT or ABA is lost.

One MAJOR point. A child can lose the Dx but since they missed the developmental milestones NT kids go thru, they need ABA/OT/Speech to catch up what was missed. Losing a Dx does not mean missed milestones magically enter the brain and the child can immediately fit in. Losing the Dx does mean that the child now has the cognative tools to learn and develope and with therapy can catch up to his peers.




They attend normal classes, they interact socially etc. Yet if they stop treatment, they again start to lose language, eye contact, socialization etc.



Is anyone actually keeping this data, or is this anecdotal? I think this might scare some parents.


It may scare parents, would you rather we cover up the facts as we see them?

It is anecdotal. The parents tell us they stop the shots and the kid regresses, start the shots and they are back where they left off. It is not a go back and start at square one scenario. Have you seen the videos in the section called "What happens if we stop the shots?"

Here is the most important question:

How long will your patients continue treatment? If you have none that are "cured," but many that are "recovered," but those in the "recovered" category will regress with an interuption in treatment, does this mean that all patients continue indefinately? forever? how long?


We have stated over and over that as of this time, we do not know if this is lifelong or a several years treatment. After 3.5 years, we do not have one child that cannot be off without some loss of function. Watch the video "Jack, Calling Dr. Bombay. Stopped Shots Twice". This child no longer does diet or supplements. He only is on MB12 only, but it is about 1/3 the original dose. Who is to say that over time he may not need the mb12?

sashasmom
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:03 pm

Postby sashasmom » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:03 pm

Thank you Rick for your explination and knowledge. It is invaluable to us!
-Crystal

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Exactly

Postby srinath » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:46 pm

sashasmom wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
So, as this is the definition of disease, what is autism???


I have always regarded autism as a developmental disorder.

Are you implying that you have a "cure" for the autism "disease?"

Winnie
P.S. Since you are online, would you mind addressing some of my questions? Thanks.


Winnie,

It seems as if you already know the answers to all of your questions but you want to ask them to keep heat going on the board. There are ways of posting nicely and ways of posting that make people feel you are trying to stir up controversy. The way it comes across is that you just want to stir up controversy however that may be wrong....it's just the way you come off in my personal opinion.

Rick and Dr. Neubrander run a practice. Of course they keep up with their data and research. That was just an ignorant question. They are not obligated to give you any information. Rick is on this board to answer questions for concerned parents not someone trying to stir up trouble. And I only say that from other threads you have posted on b/c anything anyone has to say you disagree and start a posting argument. We don't want to lose Rick's knowledge on this board b/c of a trouble maker.

I'm sure I'll get some lashing from you about this but that's ok. We need to keep this board civilized. The questions you have asked have been addressed on this board several times. That is what the search feature is for. I'm not saying that it's improper to ask what a recovered child is and will they take supplements forever but that is not what you are asking. You aren't really asking anything. Most everyone who has their child on the DAN! protocol has or should have read Dr. McCandless' book and we all know that some kids may have to stay on supplements forever. Big deal at least they'll be healthy and probably live a longer life and not get sick as much. My 15 month old child takes just about all the same supplements as my ASD son takes. Maybe you should focus on your child getting recovered instead of arguing and when the time comes you can decide if he/she needs to stay on biomedical forever. Most of the time it is a parents trial and error that helps the child since most DAN! appointments are far and few. I think you're making a big argument over something that should have been small.

JMO...

-Crystal



Exactly ... which is why I think she is a pharma shill ... and I know she denied it ... but if you were a pharma shill you would deny it too wouldn't you ...
BTW there is a lot of deception even otherwise about everything she posts ... As in the whole "Winnie is not Diva" thing ... as well as what exactly is your stake in this ... You have an older Aspie boy and a teen aged Autistic girl ... I dont see chelation as a viable option to recover or cure (whatever your definition of either of the 2 may be) ... essentially I dont see how you have anyhting to gain at all by being in this discussion except for the fact that if the entire generation of kids younger than yours drops off the spectrum, you'd be left alone in your struggle ... Essentially you have no reason to have an open mind cos you got nothing to gain and a lot to lose if we are succesful ... Now if these were quacks that were taking money from autistic parents and their insurance companies and the cures aren't really going to do anyhting ... that would not ruffle your feathers one bit, you'd be content to see us go through it and fail, then we'll all join in your view point even more strongly ... so that cannot be your motivation ... The only possibility is that ... these cures/treatments work but you have missed the boat, thus you want more of us to stay away thereby ensuring support form the govt for the future of your kids, or you want our kids to support your employer by buying their drugs all their life ... for various symptoms, food allergies, general depression, hyper sensitivity to touch etc ... I'd say the game's up ... you come up with a reason and it better make sense ... and I aint buying that whole Public service schpeel ... cos we are not losing anything by chelating our kids, our insurance is usually paying for that cos we are treating them for malabsorption, and similar issues as well as metal toxicity. Simple enough ... so put up or shut up ... or of course get a new identity and post again may take us a week or 2 to catch on ...
Cool.
Srinath.

kathleenjj
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Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:09 am

Postby kathleenjj » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:34 pm

Someone above said they always regarded autism as a developmental disorder. We can all look at it or regard it as whatever we want--it is what it is. WHAT it is is part of the debate. I personally am choosing to use biomedical interventions and have seen remarkable results. My son's teachers, unaware, have reported likewise.

We all have a right to believe what we do but where children are concerned I request that we respect those on this board trying to help other parents, not challenge them with questions we already know the answers to.
Kathleen
Proud Mom

BTDT
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Postby BTDT » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:24 pm

:?:
Last edited by BTDT on Fri May 02, 2014 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

BTDT
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Postby BTDT » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:34 pm

:?:
Last edited by BTDT on Fri May 02, 2014 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

sashasmom
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Postby sashasmom » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:53 pm

BTDT,

I see that you joined the group Dec 20 of this year. There is a search feature at the top of your screen that allows you to view threads from ages ago. This subject has been gone over and over and over and over. If you read previous threads that Winnie has been on you will understand why there are hard feelings. She has previously made it clear that she understands that these kids are sometimes on certain supplements for a long time. However in this thread she plays dumb.

Any wise person will go on Dr. Neubranders website and view the videos that are there for you to get this information. Not to cause trouble about it. Every parent who has their child on biomedical needs to ask their doctor about how long these treatments will last. Not go on here and blast everyone. Also if you are doing biomedical with your child then it's a no brainer to read the Jaquelyn McCandless book which also gives you all this information. If I remember correctly Winnie has posted that she has knowledge of the McCandless book so she obviously has trouble understanding what she reads or just got the book to stare at the cover.

Winnie is NOT a mom who has been around long enough to see treatments come and go b/c DAN! has been available for a long time and I talk to parents who's children were in the ORIGINAL studies years ago and all of their children are CURED and most all of them just take a multi vitamin which we could all use. The kids ages range from 10-15. A few kids were even in the study before DAN! became available to everyone. The parents of these kids are on other message boards.

What she needs to do is go ask her professional like you said. Not rely on parents from a board enless she just wants general information. There is no sense in her starting a posting war, fight, or controversy with EVERY SINGLE POST on this board. Many post are unmarked as "guest" but the posting type is similar to hers. If she isn't doing anything biomedical or with diets then she needs to find a new board to trerrorize.

Search her name and you will find all the threads she has signed her name to. None of them are pretty.

By the way Winnie... on another board there is a mom who's child is RECOVERED/CURED from autism using the NAET treatment. I just spoke to this mom yesterday. Her child is one of the main reasons that the NAET program is conducting the study. Just to inform you since you have so many nasty things to say about it.

-Crystal
www.sashasrecovery.com

BTDT
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Postby BTDT » Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:18 pm

:?:
Last edited by BTDT on Fri May 02, 2014 8:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:28 pm

Actually, I appreciate Rick responding and raising some other interesting points. Without clinical trials on many of these treatments, the clinical experience of those treating large numbers of ASD children is very valuable -- especially those treating a large number of children with a specific treatment. How to organize the data beyond testimonials is a difficult question (different presentations, different ages, different onsets of treatment, etc).

Since Dr. N has a medical background, he certainly understands the scientific method and clinical trials, so I doubt that he would consider any of my questions unusual in evaluating treatment effectiveness. Rick did indicate that there are areas where information continues to be an "unknown," and I appreciate the honesty. And I have watched many of the videos, and I have been quite impressed by the children in the videos. I did wish, however, that some "before treatment" video was available on the same children, as well as video during the days off MB12. I haven't watched all the videos on the site yet, so there may be some that I missed.

I think also that Rick raised some additional points that were interesting. The point that many children may require therapies to "catch up" to peers was interesting as I have noticed many parents discontinuing or delaying educational treatments with the implication that educational treatments will not be necessary. This would probably be an interesting discussion among parents doing both or choosing one path over the other (assuming parents could keep their emotions in check).

Unfortunately, Rick's response is buried among lengthy posts accusing me of asking "ignorant" questions, being a troublemaker, being autism diva in disguise, being a big pharma shill, wishing failure upon children, and this:
... I'd say the game's up ... you come up with a reason and it better make sense
I am not really personally wounded by these posts, considering the sources, but name-calling and accusations certainly discourage valid questions or comments from other readers of this board.

I didn't start this thread. The thread does contain a lot of interesting contributions from parents, and I think many parents are interested in the definition of "recovery."

It is a pity that questions and debate that might interest many are usually ended by the hysteria and misinformation of the few. I think a great many more parents would be interested in these treatments if discussion participants could engage in rational discussion of facts rather than emotional extremism.

Winnie
(a parent, not paid by big pharma or alt med, but wish I had a paycheck!)

momtoMatthew
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Postby momtoMatthew » Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:46 pm

:)
Last edited by momtoMatthew on Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chilliwackmom
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Postby chilliwackmom » Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:40 pm

I think Winnie, that you raise valid questions. Here's my (personal, not professional, lol) answer:

I believe, from all the reading I've done here, on other sites, in books, etc. that autism is both a disease and a developmental disorder.

I believe, that children with autism have a genetic, metabolic condition that makes their bodies unable to perform certain crucial functions, such as detoxifying metals for example, without intervention. This metabolic disorder is expressed, nost noticeably, through the familiar behavioral and cognitive symptoms of autism. Their bodies and their brains are not working properly (disease), and as a result, their development is compromised (developmental disorder). Untreated, they can sustain permanent damage I would imagine, depending on how severely affected they were (by both the metabolic disorder, and exposure to environmental toxins).

I believe there is sufficient data from lab reports and whatnot of various ASD kids to demonstrate that there are also PHYSICAL signs of ASD (which are less obvious than the behavioral ones).

Now, treating the metabolic disorder by supplementing the missing body chemicals (enzymes, neurotransmitters, etc.) will treat current symptoms. It may undo a certain amount of "damage", by clearing some toxins, and providing the body with the tools to heal injured tissues and systems. It won't, however, change the child's genetic makeup. Vitamins, no matter the method of delivery, are not gene therapy. Gene therapy is still extremely new, very controversial, and very complicated. Autism is a LONG way off from being able to be addressed by gene therapy, as we don't even understand yet WHICH genes cause this metabolic disorder (and it's likely there are a combination of genes).

In this way, I think Rick's diabetes analogy was good. Children with diabetes are unable to produce insulin sufficiently. As a result, they get elevated blood sugars, something you cannot see without blood tests. What you DO see are outward signs & symptoms, such as (for example, since it varies from child to child) headache, confusion, blurred vision, trembling hands, irritability. The high blood sugar, and resultant symptoms, can be addressed through managing the diet (restricting sugars) and/or providing the body with insulin via insulin injections. Both eliminate the symptoms. Neither cures the disease. Without continuing treatment, the symptoms will return, because their is no way, at this time, to treat the cause, the body's inability to produce insulin.

Another example is kidney failure/disease. Affected people, awaiting transplant (the "cure"), have to intermittently go for dialysis, an external process that does the kidney's job of ridding the body of toxins. One dialysis session doesn't fix the problem. The body continues to make toxins, and the person continues to be exposed to toxins from the environment (food), which need to be eliminated from the body.

Autism is the same way, IMO. You can't "fix" the underlying cause, and you cannot, realistically, avoid "recontamination". The world is so full of toxins (that are harmless to those with intact elimination/detoxification systems), you cannot possibly shield your child from them all. Furthermore, many of these "toxins" are our body's own byproducts, and completly unavoidable.

Until we have clearly isolated the cause, and found a way to reverse it, there will be no cure for autism - we can only treat the symptoms (either at the external, behavioral stage, or the internal, physical stage), and treatment will have to be ongoing.

Last but not least, I'm glad that Rick mentioned that children "recovered" through biomed will still have delays, as nutritional/vitamin/etc. therapy cannot magically "undo" the missed learning. It can make the body READY for learning, but the work still needs to be done!


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