Lupron = chemical castration?

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Lupron = chemical castration?

Postby Guest » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:42 pm


Guest

Re: Lupron = chemical castration?

Postby Guest » Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:30 pm

Anonymous wrote:This video tells it all:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6&q=autism


I find the Geiers to be much more convincing than a man who doesn't even use his real name...Bartholomew Cubbins? Who's next, Cindy Lou Who?

Here are the Geiers discussing their work with Lupron...as a way to treat the precocious puberty and elevated testosterone that many mercury-toxic children have. Included is also a parental testimony of how their protocol was central to her son's recovery from autism:

http://www.autismmedia.org/media4.html

Erik Nanstiel

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Re: Lupron = chemical castration?

Postby Guest » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:19 pm

Anonymous wrote:This video tells it all:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6&q=autism


I also wanted to say that the guy who put this "Bartholomew Cubbins" video together completely misrepresents the whole issue... including what the Geiers say... he's not out to debunk their presentation point for point...in fact, all he does to quote them is to say "blah blah blah" as though nothing they have said is worth listening to. And to really show his mastery of the debate, he makes fun of Dr. Geier's tie. Classy. He also calls the Geiers "the Griers" and pokes fun at FAIR for "misspelling" their last name. This "bartholomew" guy is comical at best.

Also, his assessment of the testosterone/mercury sheets is way off. He never bothered to examine the Geiers data or molecular illustrations ...he's going completely off of the FAIR video. He assumes his knowledge of chemistry is superior to the Geiers' knowledge. It's not.

Watch his video. Then watch the Geiers video. Cubbins will say anything and everything to try to make the whole thing look beyond foolish. But he shoots himself in the foot in the process.

Erik Nanstiel

MCA
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Postby MCA » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:31 pm

I do get the feeling I'm listening to some naked guy sitting at his computer just mumbling away putting together a video... but I am curious how the science all stacks up side by side. Erik, (in layman's terms cos' I am pretty slow about this) are there some specifics this guy got wrong?

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:42 pm

Granted, the name is strange :) , and I couldn't hear the end because my computer is acting up. But I have to say, what he said about puberty and how Leupron works is right on the money and all accurate. The Geiers were pretty clear on their mercury-testosterone combo theory, but totally vague and tangential on what precocious puberty actually means, how it's diagnosed, what Leupron does (or could do) to the body- basically everything that we already know from clinical practice. Had they been more scientifically rigurous on the things that we already know about (and there is no point reinventing the wheel, doctors know about puberty and Leupron for years) I for one would have found them more credible. As it is, I have the feeling that they are very interested in promoting their theory but don't put much effort into reconciling it with clinical practice. Also I don't think any of them has a background in hormone disorders, or clinical practice (I think one of them is a geneticist and the other a biochemist?). I'm not saying there is no testosterone -autism connection, there obviously is, but I'm questioning the way they propose to address and treat it.
Alex's mom

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:22 pm

Anonymous wrote:Granted, the name is strange :) , and I couldn't hear the end because my computer is acting up. But I have to say, what he said about puberty and how Leupron works is right on the money and all accurate. The Geiers were pretty clear on their mercury-testosterone combo theory, but totally vague and tangential on what precocious puberty actually means, how it's diagnosed, what Leupron does (or could do) to the body- basically everything that we already know from clinical practice. Had they been more scientifically rigurous on the things that we already know about (and there is no point reinventing the wheel, doctors know about puberty and Leupron for years) I for one would have found them more credible. As it is, I have the feeling that they are very interested in promoting their theory but don't put much effort into reconciling it with clinical practice. Also I don't think any of them has a background in hormone disorders, or clinical practice (I think one of them is a geneticist and the other a biochemist?). I'm not saying there is no testosterone -autism connection, there obviously is, but I'm questioning the way they propose to address and treat it.
Alex's mom


The problem is that people are going entirely off of FAIR's interview. There's so much more to their "theory" in their literature and even in their power point presentations. I'll be editing a lecture we hosted of theirs (which we filmed) and I'll include all the slides they used. There's much more to it. But you needn't trust me here on this board. Just know that the deeper you go...there's substance.

My daughter's DAN doctor is a little nervous about Lupron. She's impressed by the science they put forward, but wants to see more clinical data than what she's seen. She's taking a "wait and see" stance... but she supports our decision to do this. The only stipulation is that she doesn't want to use the Oral DMSA chelator they recommend in their protocol. My daughter's gut wouldn't tolerate it (she has major gut issues).

But all my daughter's labs show that she has very high testosterone and very high mercury. Both are worth treating.

Erik

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:25 pm

Mommy in CA wrote:I do get the feeling I'm listening to some naked guy sitting at his computer just mumbling away putting together a video... but I am curious how the science all stacks up side by side. Erik, (in layman's terms cos' I am pretty slow about this) are there some specifics this guy got wrong?


I'm not the one you should talk to about this... but I'd be happy to hook you up with someone with a better command of the science, if you'll email me off-board.

Erik

BTDT
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Postby BTDT » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:37 pm

"as a way to treat the precocious puberty"

Could you point me to some research/literature regarding precocious puberty in autism, other than the Geiers? This is the first I've heard of it. I've looked around a bit, and haven't been able to come up with anything. Is this something that has been known to be a problem in autism?

Thanks! :)

Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:46 pm

all my daughter's labs show that she has very high testosterone


Erik:
Are you seeing a pediatric endocrinologist as well? I think I remember you mentioning this is a previous post.
Alex's mom

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:33 pm

From reading about Lupron, i wouldnt touch it with a barge pole. There are so many forums online of women particularly who have suffered dearly in using it.

It scares the heck out of me. To me, it just seems one more assault on our kids. This is one drug which I would insist on waiting for 20 years research before I would ever consider using it, much less on my child. I applaud those who have the stomach for it, i.e. who are willing to have their children be test cases, because if it turns out that it "works" with autism, well then that is fantastic.

I guess, i dont need a "fixit" certificate that badly for my child, to risk using such a powerful and as yet, unproven drug. The endocrine/hormonal system is so very complex and we have no way of knowing yet what effect Lupron etc may have on our young children.

respect

Guest

Postby Guest » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:30 pm

Anonymous wrote:From reading about Lupron, i wouldnt touch it with a barge pole. There are so many forums online of women particularly who have suffered dearly in using it.

It scares the heck out of me. To me, it just seems one more assault on our kids. This is one drug which I would insist on waiting for 20 years research before I would ever consider using it, much less on my child. I applaud those who have the stomach for it, i.e. who are willing to have their children be test cases, because if it turns out that it "works" with autism, well then that is fantastic.

I guess, i dont need a "fixit" certificate that badly for my child, to risk using such a powerful and as yet, unproven drug. The endocrine/hormonal system is so very complex and we have no way of knowing yet what effect Lupron etc may have on our young children.

respect



Lupron is an FDA approved drug for the treatment of abnormally high testosterone and precocious puberty. If the children being treated by the Geiers didn't have those conditions...they wouldn't need or receive lupron. However, your reticence is shared...even among many in the DAN movement. Most are intrigued by the data put forth by the Geiers, but many are taking a "wait and see" attitude.

But while you're at it, why don't you tell me what your idea of "assaults" on our kids are? My daughter's greatest "assault" was her 14 month vaccines. We've been trying to repair the damage ever since. The good news is that she IS improving and her body chemistry is looking better than ever. Even her vision improved by over 50% since we've been chelating.

Erik

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:18 pm

Anonymous wrote:The good news is that she IS improving and her body chemistry is looking better than ever. Even her vision improved by over 50% since we've been chelating.

Erik



My autistic son also improved over time; he speech improved and some of his gastrointestinal problems disappeared without any treatment.

Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:49 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The good news is that she IS improving and her body chemistry is looking better than ever. Even her vision improved by over 50% since we've been chelating.

Erik



My autistic son also improved over time; he speech improved and some of his gastrointestinal problems disappeared without any treatment.


I'm happy for your son. But that's taking a huge gamble. While many children can make small gains over time... children who get treated improve much more quickly...depending on how thorough their DAN doctor is with testing/follow-up, etc. and how diligent the parents are. I know because I've seen it. I've listened to their parents and I've met the children who have recovered. None of the recovered children were UNTREATED.

By the way, my name is Erik Nanstiel. What's your name?

srinath
Posts: 941
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Lupron

Postby srinath » Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:02 pm

Administering of lupron is only after 35 tests, 4+ sessions of blood drawing with 3-4 vials at each draw. There is nothing frivolous about that lupron treatment. They will test him and look at all his charts drawn in the course of his life by his regular doctor and they ahve other experts look at it before you even get a whiff of lupron. My son is 3 standard deviations off - low on his head circumference from where he started, and is 2 standard deviations off - tall in height, he is growing early, and his head is getting smaller relative to the rest of his age group. He will at this rate be 8 1/2 feet tall and have a XXXXS head at this rate. Anyway he's hitting growth spurts early is what it is, and testosterone is what is making him do that. He is growing body hair, and showing a lot of signs of being high testosterone. Just that doctors are clueless, following a regulatory agency that is blind to the facts, just like everyhting else autism. So yea the research is there and Dr Geier surely excercises due dilligence before starting anyone on it. BTW if you really dont want to use lupron, I believe eventually DMPS will get at the sheath and remove mercury - just theory, no one knows what DMPS will do, but its one powerful puller of mercury, and I also believe NDF will, just will be slow, but that is an option.
Cool.
Srinath.

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:21 am

But that's taking a huge gamble. While many children can make small gains over time... children who get treated improve much more quickly...depending on how thorough their DAN doctor is with testing/follow-up, etc. and how diligent the parents are.


Wow that is quite a sweeping claim that I wish you could substantiate. It seems as though claims consistent with the party line go unchallenged, however.

None of the recovered children were UNTREATED


Surely you are not serious. There are plenty of recovered (like actually indistinguishable -- not just mercury-free though still significantly disabled) children who received minimal or no "biomedical" treatment whatsoever.

Even her vision improved by over 50% since we've been chelating.


How was this determined? And while I'm at it, where is the criteria for testosterone levels in the medical literature for 6-year old girls? The "300 %" beyond normal must be coming from somewhere iron-clad assuming you are willing to inject her with lupron.

Watch his video. Then watch the Geiers video. Cubbins will say anything and everything to try to make the whole thing look beyond foolish. But he shoots himself in the foot in the process


Erik, I've noticed you posting around. You posted on this blog, though stopped when pressed to support your claims beyond an infommercial, and I did not feel that you were convincing on the information end. It is an interesting read:

http://notmercury.blogspot.com/2006/02/ ... -fire.html

In the interest of a "FAIR" presentation of information, and before the usual accusations fly regarding this blogger being a pharma shill, please note that it is a parent who has been down this road. Note her first entry "I was wrong."

Winnie

quantumerik
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Postby quantumerik » Tue Feb 28, 2006 12:24 pm

Winnie wrote:
There are plenty of recovered (like actually indistinguishable -- not just mercury-free though still significantly disabled) children who received minimal or no "biomedical" treatment whatsoever.


Wonderful! Show me. I've never met one. I'd love a little substantiation myself.

Winnie wrote:
And while I'm at it, where is the criteria for testosterone levels in the medical literature for 6-year old girls? The "300 %" beyond normal must be coming from somewhere iron-clad assuming you are willing to inject her with lupron.


A routine blood test indicated my daughter's testosterone was at 19. She should be anywhere from 0 to 6. I'm aware that Lupron is unproven and affects both sex hormones. I'm proceeding very carefully with my daughter's treatment. We'll monitor her biochemistry very closely and discontinue if there are complications. On the other hand, we've done VERY well with chelation. Her eyes were getting steadily worse before we chelated. Now she's on a much lighter prescription of glasses. It is not the first instance where removal of heavy metals benefitted eyesight. She's also calmer than ever and more affectionate.

Winnie wrote:
Erik, I've noticed you posting around. You posted on this blog, though stopped when pressed to support your claims beyond an infommercial, and I did not feel that you were convincing on the information end


Sorry Winnifred, I do as much as I can with the time I have... I used to get into debate and post lengthy articles and cite the studies. It never helped the likes of you... so the occasional infommercial is all I have patience for anymore. The literature is out there. Generation Rescue.org, safeminds.org... plus all the literature available at the researchers' respective institutions... but it doesn't matter. Folks like Bart Cubbins, et al won't answer the literature point for point... And folks like you won't even look at it.


Winnie wrote:
In the interest of a "FAIR" presentation of information, and before the usual accusations fly regarding this blogger being a pharma shill, please note that it is a parent who has been down this road. Note her first entry "I was wrong."

Winnie


I don't think you're a pharma shill. I just think you don't "get it." Maybe at one point you tried a half-assed biomedical approach and nothing happened. Fortunately for other children, their parents were more diligent and enjoyed more success.

These children are not just brain damaged...they're medically/physically sick. Sure, I could ignore the chronic measles, rubella and herpes viruses that infect my daughter's intestines... I also could ignore her sky-high toxic levels of heavy metals (mercury, lead, aluminum, etc.) and just "love her for who she is."

But she already gets love from us for who she is... unfortunately, without treatment, she wouldn't be like all those mythical-untreated recovered kids you mentioned. She would face a dark future of complete societal dependence and group homes, etc. when we were too old to care for her.

I watched her go from a completely NORMAL, neurotypical child and slip away into autism the SAME WEEK as her 14 month shots. She lost everything she had but her parents. She has had numerous medical problems ever since and we're doing everything that medical science knows how to fix those problems at their core and bring her back.

If you don't like that, that's your perogative. I and the foundation with which I'm involved prefer to spend our time helping our kids... and the kids of parents who are open minded, diligent and willing to do the research and question their childrens' pediatricians. Hundreds of parents have written and thanked FAIR for what we're doing. Others have used our DVDs to influence their state legislators and pass new laws to help prevent more kids from being poisoned. We're making a real difference. And someday... when we and the other autism organizations have succeeded in securing safer vaccines and ridding the environment of all mercury exposures... and when we've pioneered new treatment options that help all affected children... I hope your family can benefit from this too.

Erik
FAIR Autism Media

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:52 pm

Wonderful! Show me. I've never met one. I'd love a little substantiation myself.


Really? How odd. Recovery is not a new concept. You must be new at this. I have met two -- one with an intensive therapy program only and one with an intensive therapy program in combo with gfcf and Dr. Goldberg's regimen (Dr. G's regimen was discarded at some point and the child continued to recover). If you like, I suppose you could start with the Lovass studies and work your way to this decade. But you won't find the documention in infomercials though.

A routine blood test indicated my daughter's testosterone was at 19.


LOL there is nothing routine about drawing vial after vial of blood to check testosterone in a little girl.

She should be anywhere from 0 to 6.


Apparently you still have no idea where these numbers come from. That little rub wouldn't matter so much if you were not using it for a basis to inject lupron.

On the other hand, we've done VERY well with chelation. Her eyes were getting steadily worse before we chelated. Now she's on a much lighter prescription of glasses. It is not the first instance where removal of heavy metals benefitted eyesight. She's also calmer than ever and more affectionate.


Sooo...we of course assume a causal relationship. Chances are that her hair and nails grew during this time as well. And using the usual logic, that makes chelation a remedy for baldness and a nail treatment.

Sorry Winnifred, I do as much as I can with the time I have... I used to get into debate and post lengthy articles and cite the studies.


Oh you are continuing to engage the debates, but cite the studies -- no.

The literature is out there. Generation Rescue.org, safeminds.org... plus all the literature available at the researchers' respective institutions


Oh I read on both sides. I've found plenty of inaccuracy on Gen Rescue's site. And the authors of some of the literature found there have disclaimed that their work constitutes a causal relationship (funny, you won't find that on their site though).

Maybe at one point you tried a half-assed biomedical approach and nothing happened. Fortunately for other children, their parents were more diligent and enjoyed more success.


So...I guess all the "diligent" parents are injecting their babies with lupron. This self-martyrdom and condescending attitude seem to be common among 1) parents new to the biomedical scene, 2) parents of young children -- especially when the child is the oldest or only, 3) less educated parents, and 4) oddly enough, parents whose children are not recovered, but enjoy some degree of self-importance seeing their name in print.

I still think that the militant shills on any side of an issue ultimately cause more harm than good.

Winnie

Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:01 pm

As a parent with no background in Biochemistry, I don't understand anything of what the Geiers say. Nevertheless, there theories may be right, who knows...


@Erik Nanstiel: on your website, I read Our online Media Center encounters an incredible amount of traffic every single month


To solve that problem, you can upload your videos to video.google.com.
Then, you can put that video using the HTML <embed> tag like on autismmedia.org, like on the following website:

http://bartholomewcubbins.blogspot.com/

(The script there is something like this:

Code: Select all

<embed style="width:400px; height:326px;" id="VideoPlayback" align="middle" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?videoUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fvp.video.google.com%2Fvideodownload%3Fversion%3D0%26secureurl%3DkgAAAMiBtddipocIUOCKqkkJpdApPu7YV4zsiDdcWwz0_GM83TJfjqV7HT3brtxuuzTGbCH2MyoiOE19UQVNXv_61ZVsyqb0kKO-a1ytbqqhgL9HlFzyqpDkUuWZs3exARjmzjb1fOB1qcsi5DaAdgzaG8GNI5ilv1CMScmjkABPzgGEwjSh0M7-FpqQHEqKZuWMym8BZmzcUTUufzHZrjr_tHw%26sigh%3DglqILlxop3F-WSastw99qbhM2FA%26begin%3D0%26len%3D555622%26docid%3D5631531873251766374&thumbnailUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2FThumbnailServer%3Fcontentid%3D733c20d4b0ff2668%26second%3D5%26itag%3Dw320%26urlcreated%3D1138627308%26sigh%3DGIviA8CdZEo9JIZBTi0VrhLqRUk&playerId=5631531873251 allowScriptAccess="always"766374&playerMode=embedded" quality="best" bgcolor="#ffffff" scale="noScale" wmode="window" salign="TL" > </embed>






Jim

quantumerik
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Testosterone levels

Postby quantumerik » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:21 pm

Winnie, since you want to know what the numbers really mean, testosterone levels are measured in nanograms per deciliter, or ng/dl. A level of 19 is way too high for a girl of 7 years of age. Any level from 11 to 30 can represent early puberty.

I repeat. A girl her age shouldn't be over the level of 6 ng/dl. My daughter's level was three times that. And whether the blood test is considered routine or not... it is a simple test to do.

Do all diligent parents use lupron? No of course not. This is new. Very new. And considering my daughter's case....necessary. And the same may go for MANY mercury toxic children.

Winnie, you only fear what you don't understand. But yours and the others in your "don't try to treat autism" camp refuse to examine the wealth of biomedical research pointing out what's really going on inside these children's bodies.

The diets are great. Lovaas is great. But they're not enough. The TWO children you mention... so what. I've met about a hundred who will never recover if something isn't done for them.

Erik Nanstiel

MIssy

Postby MIssy » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:24 pm

Winnie -

Don't you have anything better to do than harrass us? You assume that we are less educated than you! How do you know this? Do you personally have our education histories in hand??
Having our names in print is not the objective here!! Educating parents to let them know that there are alternative treatments is the objective. Letting them know that this might work for their children as it did for ours.

BTW, if you are Kathleen, stop making assumptions about me and misquoting me. Friends and family members were outraged that you, Kathleen, made such assumptions of me. You don't know me or my family. You have not personally seen the changes in my son's life. Screams of pain and frustration turned into smiles and laughter! If that makes me a "diligent" , less educated, egotistical, martyr then guilty as charged!

Debate and educate that is why we are here! We are not here to judge the "individual" choices of treatments each parent is choosing for their own child. We are here to support each other, share in our children's triumphs, and lend a shoulder to cry on. And we certainly do not ever make assumptions that parents love themselves more than their children. We love our children with all of our hearts or we wouldn't be here!


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