Lupron = chemical castration?

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quantumerik
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:50 am

Postby quantumerik » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:35 pm

give a mouse a cookie wrote:I have posted this many times.... :wink:
My son is 4 and a half years old..5 this summer, not even close to 10.
He has made great progress without chelation, which would be silly anyway, as he has no heavy metal poisoning. We DID have him tested.
We don't use any state funding.
Autism will always be here, so I seriously doubt he's going to wind up being the "only autistic kid around."
Honestly, an average Joe on the street would not even know my child is autistic if I didn't bring it up. THAT'S how fantastic his progress has been. From constant headbanging, tantrums, zero speech, feeding issues, sleep issues, you name it, at two years old to a fairly typical four year old kid. NO chelation, NO Liver Life, NO Lupron, NO DAN! docs, and surpisingly, NO ABA. It CAN be done--not always, but sometimes. You want to help other parents with your own methodology, as do I.
--Hope comes in many varieties; mine just doesn't involve a cure.
My greatest hope for my son is that he will grow to adulthood and find love, happiness and personal success. Aren't these the same hopes you have for your children?



Cookie, if your son is recovering by the Grace of God, I am happy for you. Just don't ask parents who are interested in biomedical research and treatments to have the level of FAITH in God or happenstance that you do. I have faith in God... not that he'll miraculously cure my daughter of her crippling disability (perhaps mislabeled as AUTISM) but that he'll lead us toward safe and effective treatments brought to us by the lab and clinical science being exercised in the DAN movement.

But like you said... if he's making great progress, then he's not likely loaded with many heavy metals as many of our kids are. That being the case, you didn't need biomedics.

So why argue with those of us who do need it for our kids?

quantumerik
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:50 am

Postby quantumerik » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:37 pm

Alex's mom wrote:I have no problem whatsoever with the Geier's mansion. (BTW- was he ever a practicing ob/gyn, Eric?


Yes, he was. For 20 years or more. Hence his title, M.D. Why is that so hard to believe?

Erik

MCA
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Postby MCA » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:51 pm

I remember going to the TACA new parent seminar and hearing from them that the "curing" part of the TACA title is a bit misleading; that for many kids it's not a CURE but a managed recovery for which they are aiming.

A cured kid would be a kid/adult no longer needing meds, dietary intervention, or anything else to supress the autism symptoms.

That made sense to me.

quantumerik
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:50 am

Postby quantumerik » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:54 pm

Alex's mom wrote:I do very much question the patent issue. There are lots and much more professionally elegant avenues for one's scientific discoveries- research grants, institutional review boards (though admittedly it would be quite difficult to get IRB approval for their projects), publications etc. It's not like they discovered some new type of engine and want it patented. What they are proposing is a completely novel mechanism of disease- why rush to a patent before testing it clinically and doing the right thing? This DOES create a credibility issue for me.


What they're attempting to patent is a novel USE for a drug... hey, if I were allowed to patent the combination of Sweet Baby Ray's barbecue sauce with Open Pit as a stellar treatment for Pork Ribs... I'd do it. That doesn't mean I don't truly love ribs... but I'd hate for somebody else to get rich off my idea... or for someone else to patent it and prevent me from doing what I know to be a great treatment for pork! :-P

Seriously, though... I don't have a problem with it. Although I haven't looked at the patent app... if there is one.

Alex's mom wrote:
They will not put older than 7 or 8 year old girl or 9 year old boy (dont exactly know the nubmers there ... someone can pitch in) on it
.
I should hope not :). David the "lawyer" should know better. But that is one of the beauties of the situation- if Leupron addresses in some way the mercury theory why withhold it just because the child is 7? If you are really treating precocious puberty, again, you don't stop at 7, you stop close to the time when kids go through puberty anyways. I think they stop giving it closer to real puberty, because that's where you begin to see a real effect of the Leupron, and they know as much. Giving Leupron to a 3-year old (where things - i.e. the pituitary- are sort of hibernating anyways) is certainly much less likely to rock the boat. If they don't give it to kids older than the age range Srinath mentioned- then they are being smart and cautious, but this does not support their theory. You can't have it both ways.


David's not a lawyer. But looking at their paper, I can see that they've treated a girl as old as 10 years of age. She had facial and body hair, and all sorts of outward signs of high testosterone. And her testosterone level was 27 ng/dcl. which is insanely high. An appropriate treatment, therefore. Which is all they ever do. If they're not treating older children with Lupron... it's not because they don't want to rock the boat. It's because they don't find it medically appropriate or necessary.

srinath
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

lower

Postby srinath » Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:55 pm

Alex's mom - That 8 or 9 year cut off was the limit for being diagnosed as early puberty. Remember lupron is for high testosterone ... chelation and mercury are separate. They will chelate older kids too, but lupron maybe they wont do cos it could interfere ... in any case I dont know for sure anyhting about that. Because my son is 3 i only thought and asked about that age group. High testosterone will cause seizures, not for everyone that is going through puberty, only autistic and mercury loaded kids. If you were mercury toxic and you started making a lot of testosterone when you hit puberty one of the side effects of the high testosterone is seizures. Your "maybe they were seizing in their house" ... will not apply unless these were mercury toxic autistic kids hitting puberty you are refering to.

GM cookie - I said "Say your kid is 10" (its hypothetical ) not really directed at you, just an example, not quite saying he is 10. Now I have a question for you - What was the metal toxicity test you did to conclude he's not metal toxic. You use Cutlers counting rules or what else. It is possible that you also got that "incorrect diagnosis by the experts". He could have just been a little delayed in some things and they DX'ed autism. You have mentioned many symptoms, but its overall vague. Head banging, tantrums, feeding issues, sleep issues. Now what exactly did you do. It will be a boon to all the other suffering parents including myself.
Cool.
Srinath.

Alex's mom
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Postby Alex's mom » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:17 pm

Erik-
I have no problem believing that Mark G is an MD. That wasn't my question. I was asking if he had been an ob/gyn (as was stated previously). According to what I found he is boarded in genetics and forensics.
I certainly understand not treating older children with Leupron :). That's pretty mainstream too :). I can understand puberty and Leupron. I have a very limited understanding of mercury and Leupron. It seems to me like their theory has really several tiers: 1. mercury overload. 2. testosterone binding. 3. too much testosterone . 4. Leupron treatment (to address issues # 2 and # 3). 5. Testosterone comes down. 6. Mercury goes out (via chelator of choice). Is this accurate?
I'm wondering how are issues # 1 and # 2 addressed in older children to be consistent with their theory?
Good grief, if a child really has precocious puberty, the kind that responds to Leupron, then using Leupron is a no-brainer. I don't understand why those kids wouldn't see or be referred to a pediatric endocrinologist, but maybe I'm not open minded enough. If I had concerns about my son entering puberty at age 5, I would go to peds endo ASAP. The younger the child in precocious puberty, the more extensive a workup required. Whether or not my son is also ASD would matter little in that regard. It's testing (and treating) the little ones with no real signs of prec.pub. (fuzzy legs are not a sign of prec.pub. BTW, even though it's mentioned in their interview) that I find hard to explain.

Is this the thread with the most posts?

Alex's mom

give a mouse a cookie
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Postby give a mouse a cookie » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:29 pm

Hi erik-
Thank you for your considerate post; however, the Grace of God had nothing to do with it, and truth be told, I have very little faith. I envy people that DO have that faith, but I personally do not possess it.
Work, work, work, and patience, patience, patience--my mantra for my son's progress. It has NOT been easy. Ever. Throw in awesome therapists and his teachers at preschool--they have been very instrumental, as well.

srinath-
It is possible that you also got that "incorrect diagnosis by the experts". He could have just been a little delayed in some things and they DX'ed autism.

Absolutely, unequivocally, NO. No misdiagnosis. Metals test--don't remember because they were running an insane number of tests--I would have to get info from his doc. Personally, I don't want to go to the trouble to satisfy your curiosity. No offense. You will just have to trust me on this one. Do you really think I would WANT my son diagnosed as an autistic if he wasn't?
His initial and current diagnosis? We went to no less than 4 doctors/specialists in the field. Additionally, we (his teachers and I) completed a CARS (Childhood Autism Rating Scale) survey, which classified him as mild to moderately autistic. Pediatrician, ped. psychiatrist--both used the DSM-IV and also diagnosed autism. Neurologist and geneticist? I don't know what criteria they used, but diagnosis was the same. Treatments offered by mainstream med? Nothing. Zilch. Nada. I had to go it alone on this child. Scary at the time--not so scary anymore.
No one involved in his education, family, or health care has ever doubted his diagnosis. A child does NOT have to be metal poisoned to be autistic, contrary to some popular opinions. He has autism. It's not so bad. We cope and do our best to help him cope. Sometimes are better than others, some are worse--all part of the package.
Now what exactly did you do. It will be a boon to all the other suffering parents including myself.


Really, srinath, I don't believe you give a rat's a** about how we have treated my son.....and now you are trying to question his diagnosis? Your attempt at a sarcastic plea for advice is a little insulting, to say the least. Why would I waste my time? You wouldn't listen to what I have to say without attempting to refute what has worked for my son, though I know it worked for him--just as you know chelation worked for your son. I think I'll keep these pearls all to myself. :wink:
Later--we are going to the playground.

srinath
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Mercury

Postby srinath » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:34 pm

I believe mercury overload in a child that has or is hitting puberty will have to be chelated out with a rotation type chelation protocol. DMSA, then DMPS, then PCA whatever. Maybe after full puberty they can lupron him. In reality you can give lupron to a full adult, and with that I can tell you there is no long term effects, and it was a larger than the depot shot my son will get ... just that developing adolescent I will be more worried. In any case I am no doctor, I only have asked them about a 3 year old ... You may have to contact the Geiers for details.
Their testing is very intensive before and through the treatment. And its done at labcorp not some kooky lab.
Cool.
Srinath.

srinath
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

No

Postby srinath » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:44 pm

give a mouse a cookie wrote:<snip>
Really, srinath, I don't believe you give a rat's a** about how we have treated my son.....and now you are trying to question his diagnosis? Your attempt at a sarcastic plea for advice is a little insulting, to say the least. Why would I waste my time? You wouldn't listen to what I have to say without attempting to refute what has worked for my son, though I know it worked for him--just as you know chelation worked for your son. I think I'll keep these pearls all to myself. :wink:
Later--we are going to the playground.


Yes yes anger ... sounds good. Very solid advice for people debating whether to do chelation or not. Now that same anger is what you used on your son. OK sounds good.
In any case "chelation has not worked" for my son. We haven't even started yet.
Unless you give us details you are going to be another pharma shill. Personal experience is all that matters here, you know that. Of course not giving details and saying you did "Work, work, work, and patience, patience, patience--my mantra for my son's progress" would let us believe we can try it and bingo we wont realise till too late and we are your customers for life.
In any case, you said the golden word - and that peaked my interest ... "and surpisingly, NO ABA".
It was genuine.
Cool.
Srinath.

littlebopeep
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Postby littlebopeep » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:57 pm

Sorry if this is a dumb dumb question, but....

Is any parent able to give his child Lupron or must it be given only in conjunction with an MD's study? If this is an experimental use of this drug and if it's widely available via any doc, I can understand the passionate concern of some posters. If it's available only through a bona fide study, well, that's a choice that a parent has the right to make.
Fred, 7, NT
Barney, 5, autism

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Its

Postby srinath » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:02 pm

Its a serious mainstream drug, been around for ~15 years patented and about to expire patent too ... so 17 years right. Not experimental at all. The labelled use for it is to lower testosterone in the event of hitting early puberty. Its also given to sex offenders and in events of surgery in the ... ahem area ... to normal people ...
The only controversy is the fact that we are administering it to a 3 to 8 year old person instead of 8 and up year old.
Its not available OTC and its a serious serious monitor your doseage and test every 2 weeks kind of drug.
I'd do it with a qualified doctor who will be under Dr G's guidance only and no its not a study really, its a treatment protocol, and it will get better mileage out of the chelator and prevent higher losses of essential minerals like zinc and selenium from your body in addition to higher mercury excretion.
Cool.
Srinath.

littlebopeep
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Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:33 pm

Re: Its

Postby littlebopeep » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:17 pm

srinath wrote:I'd do it with a qualified doctor who will be under Dr G's guidance only


I don't doubt your (or Erik's) doing this under Dr. G's guidance. It's all the other parents, who haven't done nearly the research that you have who may not be making such an informed decision. This choice seems to require practically having gone to medical school, since there's not a, for want of a better term, "bona fide" place you can go for information and care.

I used to work at Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle* and patients would come there when all hope was lost elsewhere. They knew that the treatments were experimental and consented to being guinea pigs, in essence, in the hope of recovery. These patients and families were under the care of many doctors and support staff. With Lupron and autism, it looks as though it's every man for himself. How can your average parent of an ASD kid, with average commitments and average energy and average time constraints, make this decision on his own?


*as a family support volunteer. I am not in the medical field by a long shot.
Fred, 7, NT

Barney, 5, autism

Alex's mom
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Postby Alex's mom » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:46 pm

I'd do it with a qualified doctor who will be under Dr G's guidance only


Srinath-
Do you mind if I ask whether your pediatrician or someone else has agreed to work with you on the Leupron protocol? (not sure if you started already). Who will be writing the prescription/doing the monitoring?


Littlebopeep:
When it comes to autism,I think I feel just like the patients who came to your center. What you are saying holds true not only for Leupron but for other autism interventions as well. Granted, Vitamin C doesn't make me nervous, but other interventions (like IV infusions, chelation etc) aren't really "standard of care"- no "bona fide" information place either. Seems like there are almost as many protocols/combinations possible as there are ASD kids. It seems like a maze, and at some point you just have to go out on a limb and trust someone or yourself.
Actually the Leupron protocol sort of "straddles" the mainstream/alternative approaches, but you will find lots of mainstream doctors who prescribe Leupron and are comfortable using it and explaining it, lots of mainstream docs who treat precocious puberty in kids, so at least here there are lots of second opinions available. I wish that was the case for some of the other things we are doing. I wish I could go to someone and have them explain chelation to me as it pertains to autism.

Alex's mom

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

My dan

Postby srinath » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:48 pm

Alex's mom wrote:
I'd do it with a qualified doctor who will be under Dr G's guidance only


Srinath-
Do you mind if I ask whether your pediatrician or someone else has agreed to work with you on the Leupron protocol? (not sure if you started already). Who will be writing the prescription/doing the monitoring?

<snip>
Alex's mom


I am doing it with my dan doc, whose son also an aspie is also under Dr G's care and a few weeks ahead of us in his treatment. So I am in very good company.
Lil Bo Peep - Its going to cost the average family less than 1 hour of OT for a months supply of the chelation + lupron. Dr G will do it with your Dan and a phone consult. They'll want your charts that you have from your son's birth and order up 33+ tests, much of which will be paid by insurance. That will take a little time, but the goal is a much more effective and better targeted chelation. In effect you'll chelate out the mercury first, not zinc and selenium and all the essential minerals and then get to mercury in a few months.
Cool.
Srinath.

srinath
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Work work work ...

Postby srinath » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:52 pm

give a mouse a cookie wrote:Hi erik-
<snip>
Work, work, work, and patience, patience, patience--my mantra for my son's progress. It has NOT been easy. Ever. Throw in awesome therapists and his teachers at preschool--they have been very instrumental, as well.

<snip>


In essence You've not tried bio med, you're not trying bio med in the future either, and you're posting about your personal experience on biomed. I think you should post in the "Work, work, work, and patience, patience, patience" section.
Cool.
Srinath.

Lily
Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:46 pm

Postby Lily » Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:44 pm

Cookie,
I did not get a chance to go back and look if you posted your son's story. I am very curious how he recovered. Never know, it may help somebody here. After all, that's what forums like these are about.

And I think it is silly to think that using your real name will bring hate mail your way. Majority of moms and dads here are mainly concerned about their children and not how to send hate mails to other parents. Well, maybe with the exception of a few who seem not to be wanting to give up the negativity. I've been on this forum for only a month and you guys definately stand out!

And by the way, life is a risk too. So is tylenol :wink:
Lily

Tim
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:43 am

Postby Tim » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:39 am

quantumerik wrote:
Tim wrote:
quantumerik wrote:You have no logical reason to make the accusation that the ------ are in this for the money. I know them. Yes, they charge money. That's how they can afford to conduct their study. They don't live in a million dollar mansion...they don't drive fancy cars... and they wear $200 suits from a discount men's wearhouse (by the looks of it).


Image
Picture: Two-story ------ residence in Maryland

The property sports an Olympic sized tennis court, a lap pool, a green house, a hot tub, and granite countertops throughout along with “wall-to-wall carpeting,” granite floors and expensive “faux wood paneling.” A quick peek at sales in the neighborhood shows comparable properties to be selling at around $1.8 million.

Source: Uninformed Consent



Wow, the house I saw from Google Earth didn't even show a swimming pool. I wonder if Christie Diemond can verify this is their residence? Either way, you're talking about a man who has been a practicing doctor for more than 20 years. Doctors in private practice typically make six figure salaries. A doctor good with his money could easily have bought a house like this in the last decade before real estate values went through the roof. If Dr. ------ were ten or twenty years younger... I'd be more suspicious of his intentions.

They have NOT charged us much money during this protocol. And their attention to detail, the extensive testing and careful follow-ups through this process are indicative of their desire to help our child and conduct a careful study.

Why are you here, Tim?


If you say that the Father and the Son don't live in a million dollar mansion, I believe you.

I'm here because I know a lot of people with autism, for example my own father, so I'm constantly looking for effective treatments to give for his birthday. :shock:

The Lupron protocol in particular sounds interesting, since there's no doubt that he has a lot of testosterone. 8)

Personally, I'm not so sure about the relation between mercury and testosterone which the Father & the Son describe. From the "autistic" adolescents I know, two of them told me that they had a pretty normal life until the age of 10-11, when puberty started. Before puberty, they even had friends, but with puberty, social isolation came.

srinath
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Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

What

Postby srinath » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:15 am

Lupron during puberty is a sorta disruptive medication, I believe avoiding that window will all be what is needed ... They give lupron in large amounts to adults ... for example ... any surgery in that area ... they have been given it before during and after ... But again I am no doctor.
Man I wont even consider the wealth of my doctor ... why ... my grader and he was the cheapest by far ... making me wonder how can he even do it for that $$$ ... owns a 2004 harley road king (cost over 20K) and a 2005 600 mercedes ... I asked him if he was a doctor or lawyer :-)) on the side ... He said I own everything, dont have payments on anything. My dad gave me the land (20,000) than I bought a used backhoe, and then a used dozer, and he's done nothing but that for 20 years, and his bills are low, and eventually his wife worked as a dental assistant ... but he said he's starting to go broke ... his kids need more money and he's starting to feel the pinch and guess what ... he was younger than me ... A lot of it is about managing what you have and in some cases getting a good slice of luck ... Like buying a house in 1995 for under market value and have it sky rocket in value by 2005. Anyway ... yes
Cool.
Srinath.

quantumerik
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:50 am

Re: What

Postby quantumerik » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:35 am

srinath wrote:Lupron during puberty is a sorta disruptive medication, I believe avoiding that window will all be what is needed ... They give lupron in large amounts to adults ... for example ... any surgery in that area ... they have been given it before during and after ... But again I am no doctor.
Man I wont even consider the wealth of my doctor ... why ... my grader and he was the cheapest by far ... making me wonder how can he even do it for that $$$ ... owns a 2004 harley road king (cost over 20K) and a 2005 600 mercedes ... I asked him if he was a doctor or lawyer :-)) on the side ... He said I own everything, dont have payments on anything. My dad gave me the land (20,000) than I bought a used backhoe, and then a used dozer, and he's done nothing but that for 20 years, and his bills are low, and eventually his wife worked as a dental assistant ... but he said he's starting to go broke ... his kids need more money and he's starting to feel the pinch and guess what ... he was younger than me ... A lot of it is about managing what you have and in some cases getting a good slice of luck ... Like buying a house in 1995 for under market value and have it sky rocket in value by 2005. Anyway ... yes
Cool.
Srinath.


My own house is one I purchased for less than $150K in 1998. I tell you... after I added a garage, an addition and a few improvements... and then add in land appreciation... the value has more than doubled in eight years.

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Shhh

Postby srinath » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:37 am

Shhhh Erik, they'll start calling you a chelation/lupron shill ... and you're posting with your real name and identity ... you'll get hate mail ... :lol:
Cool.
Srinath.


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