Quackwatch

Discuss autism theories, media stories, and efforts to put ASD on the government agenda here.

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srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Yes

Postby srinath » Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:54 pm

Yes ABA shills, there is plenty of them, come over to charlotte NC and I will show you a building full of them. Oh yea they want 20K a year and 3 year waiting list to actually admit a child.
The speech/OT's cost $85 an hour. I have had them cancel sessions on days with no good reason, and I call it counting day.
Plenty of shills. No one that can mention the word autism isn't making money hand over fist. DAN doc included. However my DAN doc takes 3 hours + at each meeting and always has a good bunch of ideas and assesments and usually makes a lot of sense in her suggestions. Insurance pays her, and we pay the ded. Totally worth it IMHO, could freaking care less if insurance goes broke, she's the only one apart from Dr Geier that has ever made sense in my son's case. Chelation itself is still in our future, but so far DAN has been a godsend.
BTW DAN docs get into it cos they have kids who are Autistic, and their motovation has always been personal. Like I have posted before I'd like to see any of the anti chelation shills for a real motivation - as in - it takes a lot of time and effort to be on this board and post and say whatever they feel like - why spend the time - need a personal motive. That is why I call them pharma shills or ABA shills. Give me a real motive and I will stop. It can be as simple as, my friend tried chelation and it failed for her. I didn't want others to experience that disappointment. Or I tried it ... I'll ask you questions about what and how and what not, but atleast I'll accept it.
Cool.
Srinath.

ASDbaby

Postby ASDbaby » Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:55 pm

Elis mom wrote:To rick's poll-
BTW--Did your brother really get his MD mailorder from Mexico? That's what was stated on his website earlier today. Please tell me that was his idea of a joke. I'm sure I have a spare stamp here somewhere...maybe I can be a doctor, too!


Where did you see this on his website? I've been to his website for many months now and nothing has changed except the HBOT info and contact info and a few videos of children's experiences. I have never seen a bio for him and still can't find one. Where is your source? Can you post a link?
-MA

LittleManzMamma
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:21 pm

Postby LittleManzMamma » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:01 pm

His bio can be found under the downloads tab. "Curriculum Vitae for James A. Neubrander, Updated January 1, 2006"... though I did not see any mention of Mexico either. LOL :lol:

Omamma
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:56 am

Postby Omamma » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:01 pm

Dana,
"Cheers" for such a good post!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!!! :D

ASDbaby

Postby ASDbaby » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:38 pm

No it looks like he got it at Loma Linda University. I control "f" searched mexico and he's spoke in mexico city about mb-12 that's about it.
-MA

rlneub
Posts: 1872
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:37 pm

Postby rlneub » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:41 pm

As to Mexico... Not sure it is on the website. He did a presentation where he dressed up as a quack & a witch doctor as he is so frequently called that. In that same presentation he said he got his medical degree via mail order from Mexico. If after seeing him in those get-ups, (one can be seen on our contact us page) you think he was serious...

Ok, so you wait for the science to catch up before doing anything. That is your right. But, every trial has to have people willing to try before they do the study. And as studies can take several years, some parents are willing to try before the "official" pronouncement is made. THIS DOES NOT MAKE IT QUACKERY, JUST UNPROVEN. Only after the evidence is in can it be quackery. And even then a fact is a fact until another fact shows that a fact is in fact not a fact. Look at the facts that "the world is flat", "the earth is the center of the universe", "tobacco is good for you", "cocain is good in small doses", "refridgerator moms"....
And just so you know, the "official" study is going on and Jim is the clinical consultant.

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00273650

Maybe one day mb12 helps autism will be a fact. Right now it is unknown, not quackery.

So you don't like videos. That is your right. But why try to discourage those who see the videos and wish to go for it?

In both DAN and mainstream, there is good docs and bad docs. There are docs who listen and docs who go thru the motions. There are those who are in it for the money and those who wish to make a living without gouging the parents.

My main issue with mainstream is too often the reliance on studies to do their thinking instead of investigating for themselves and the often stated that Biomedical is dangerous when there are videos and parent testimonies out the wahzoo. The dismissal of parents IS WRONG. After all, the parent is with the child 24/7 and the most they can see them is for an hour. In our practice, parents often teach us. We learn by listening to what does/does not work.

DAN! is not perfect. Neither is mainstream medicine. But DAN! is working on finding ways to treat kids with ASD. Mainstream is more focused on saying it is genetic and there is little that can be done. With DAN! you get videos and testimonies of recovered kids. With mainstream you usually get drugs and are many times told to expect to institionalize your child. With DAN! mb12, hbot, diet, anti-virals and chelation are seen to help. With mainstream you get Ritalin, Risperdal, Straterra.

Why is it many times a child who to the parent seems in obvious pain is told by mainstream that this is just autism. If an NT child showed the same pain, they are rushed to treatment? Why is it that often a child with a distended belly and screaming each time they go to the bathroom and are chronically constipated that this is told to be autism and no treatment given by mainstream. If your NT child had a distended belly and constipation they are treated instead of being dismissed.

WHAT MAKE A CHILD WITH AUTISM NOT BE TREATED WITH THE SAME RESPECT AS AN NT CHILD? This is my beef with mainstream (in general, there are exceptional docs in mainstream who do listen, but the overall mentality I find [my opinion] is deplorable in regards to autism)

Elis mom
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:04 am

Postby Elis mom » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:51 pm

Just for all y'all's FYI--I am not trying to tell anyone what to do or not do with their children in regards to treating their autism. I stand by my original post, regardless of anyone's opinion. I think that a child's physical and mental well-being is a parent's primary concern, and any and all of you will choose what you feel is best. My point was, and still is, there are some really rotten scoundrels out there--plain old MDs, DAN! doctors, and natural practitioners as well. There are also some remarkable doctors who want to help, but they may be less informed than most people on this board and others like it.

You are your child's best advocate. Learn everything you can, and take it with a grain of salt. The sad thing is that no one REALLY knows what causes autism, but theories abound, just as treatments do.

Lastly, and this will be my last post here at autismweb, I promise, love your child for who he or she is already. I've read some very enlightening posts on other forums by autistic adults. One of the most damaging things for a child to believe (whether the parents intend it or not) is that they weren't good enough the way they were--that the parents tried literally every treatment available, to no avail.
It was an eye-opener for me--because I felt the same way for a while--that Eli wasn't good enough the way he is. I felt a need to fix his faults, and a lot of them are not fixable. These children will become adults one day, don't spend their childhoods constantly reminding them that they just aren't acceptable the way they are. Try to help them the best you can, but don't try to change them into someone they can never be.

This forum was a godsend for me in the beginning of our journey, when I was thunderstruck by a diagnosis I knew nothing about. I cried and screamed at the gods for sending me a child I felt I could not successfully parent. I have since learned otherwise. He is a joy every day, and I embrace his unique ways and abilities.

Now, however, it's time for me to take a hike. I have a long, bumpy road ahead of me, but I've got a smile on my face as I go. To all who have offered words of encouragement along the way, and you know who you are, a warm and heartfelt thank you.

ps--to dgdavis--if you're going to make a statement with impact, try to spell it correctly. that's D-E-S-P-E-R-A-T-E you go, girl!! :lol:
Last edited by Elis mom on Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

So

Postby srinath » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:55 pm

So what you're saying is ... treating him in any way with chelation or otherwise felt like you were trying to change who he was ... and that was painful for you ... is that what I am reading ... OK if so I can dig that.
Cool.
Srinath.

kathleenjj
Posts: 487
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:09 am

Postby kathleenjj » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:04 pm

The DAN protocol has brought about AMAZING progress for my son. Especially MB12 shots, diet, certain supplements and chelation

For those of you who think you shouldn't change your child--do you let him or her do whatever they want? hit, eat with their fingers, play in the road? oh, wait. you get to define what is healthy and what is ok to help a child learn to do things differently.

I know what I have experienced via DAN--and it has been wonderful and we aren't done yet! :)

I love my children completely. Think what you will. They feel the truth-and I feel thier love more and more each day. My son--who previously could not speak--says he loves me more than anything in the whole wide world and hugs me with a big smile. If that is bad in some people's eyes to have helped him recognize his feelings and learn to speak then I can live with your dissapproval.
Kathleen
Proud Mom

LittleManzMamma
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:21 pm

Postby LittleManzMamma » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:29 pm

Good-bye

Elis mom wrote:Ya know--I just KNEW this would stir the pot. I saw it on the website earlier today, now it is gone. For the record, this was the first time I had visited the site. May we assume it was an April Fool's joke? Let's hope so.
Still haven't heard back from rick, though.

Just for all y'all's FYI--I am not trying to tell anyone what to do or not do with their children in regards to treating their autism. I stand by my original post, regardless of anyone's opinion. I think that a child's physical and mental well-being is a parent's primary concern, and any and all of you will choose what you feel is best. My point was, and still is, there are some really rotten scoundrels out there--plain old MDs, DAN! doctors, and natural practitioners as well. There are also some remarkable doctors who want to help, but they may be less informed than most people on this board and others like it.

You are your child's best advocate. Learn everything you can, and take it with a grain of salt. The sad thing is that no one REALLY knows what causes autism, but theories abound, just as treatments do.

Lastly, and this will be my last post here at autismweb, I promise, love your child for who he or she is already. I've read some very enlightening posts on other forums by autistic adults. One of the most damaging things for a child to believe (whether the parents intend it or not) is that they weren't good enough the way they were--that the parents tried literally every treatment available, to no avail.
It was an eye-opener for me--because I felt the same way for a while--that Eli wasn't good enough the way he is. I felt a need to fix his faults, and a lot of them are not fixable. These children will become adults one day, don't spend their childhoods constantly reminding them that they just aren't acceptable the way they are. Try to help them the best you can, but don't try to change them into someone they can never be.

This forum was a godsend for me in the beginning of our journey, when I was thunderstruck by a diagnosis I knew nothing about. I cried and screamed at the gods for sending me a child I felt I could not successfully parent. I have since learned otherwise. He is a joy every day, and I embrace his unique ways and abilities.

Now, however, it's time for me to take a hike. I have a long, bumpy road ahead of me, but I've got a smile on my face as I go. To all who have offered words of encouragement along the way, and you know who you are, a warm and heartfelt thank you.

LittleManzMamma
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:21 pm

Postby LittleManzMamma » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:29 pm

oops
Last edited by LittleManzMamma on Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mom_of_an_autie
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:18 pm

Postby mom_of_an_autie » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:43 pm

I just want to toss my opinion in here for what its worth. I do not feel because parents look for other alternatives to help their children that makes them desperate. Remember every child with autism is different and respond differently to different therapies. I personally have seen the effects the biomedical route has had on my son. That does not mean I am looking for a way to change him though. My child has serious gut issues and sensory issues that need to be addressed. Does that mean because a therapy that makes sense should not be tried because there is not 100% proof it works? I feel it would make me neglectful as a parent to not look into ways to help my child. All the ABA in the world is not going to help him when his little body is tore up inside. For the record I am a parent who does not just take for granted what a doctor (whether it be mainstream or alternative) tells me to do for my child. I do research and extensive reading before I make any decisions of which therapies to provide. I do not want to change my child. I love him for the child he is however I dont think that should doom him to live with gut issues and sensory sensitivites if there are non invasive things I can try to make his quality of life better. That does not make me desperate it makes me a caring, concerned parent who loves her child.....

dgdavis64
Posts: 5241
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:51 pm

Postby dgdavis64 » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:07 pm

~Dana~

About being DESPRATE....................

Rock on with your bad self girlfriend, I'm with you!

Beware of the pharma trollbot shills posting from anonymous proxy servers

respect
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:52 am

Postby respect » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:13 am

The "Quackwatch" method of autism intervention:

Trust your GP! They are SO knowledgeable!

Wait and see, or better yet, ignore for five years.

Take pharmaceutical drugs at the first sign of behavior complications.

Take pharmaceutical drugs yourself to deal with the anxiety of all of the above.

Never EVER question! Never EVER attempt self help. NEVER

If all else fails, put a bag over your head and melt into oblivion.

Elis mom
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:04 am

Postby Elis mom » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:58 am

I was not going to post a reply, but I could not help one last post, after seeing the venom spewed forth by people who are so blatantly judgmental of anyone who QUESTIONS biomedical interventions.
I have NEVER said that anyone who takes part in that type of activity is harming their child, or does not love them. I pointed out that you should all do a lot of research, and that includes scientific evidence, not just anecdotal evidence.
Many parents are anxious for answers and improvements in their child. We are not so very different, all of us, yet because I questioned certain procedures, I was condemned and vilified. I did not condemn any of you for doing biomed, I only cautioned. There is a BIG difference there. You read things the way you choose, and interpret them as such.

For those of you who think you shouldn't change your child--do you let him or her do whatever they want? hit, eat with their fingers, play in the road? oh, wait. you get to define what is healthy and what is ok to help a child learn to do things differently.


I do not allow my child to hit, or play in the road, but he is allowed to eat with his fingers when it is appropriate. I have very similar notions of what is acceptable and safe behavior, no matter what you choose to believe. I get to define what is healthy and ok for MY child, no one else's--the same goes for you. I only cautioned parents to proceed with care, not to sit by and do nothing, as "respect" implied. What a misnomer that is... I can have his/her respect only if I agree with him/her completely. Sounds fair.

My husband and I do not sit by and do nothing, nor do we completely trust mainstream medicine. Honestly, mainstream med did nothing to help our son. Lots of therapy and patience have helped our son, and will continue to do so. We don't have a bag over our collective heads, we just chose a path of therapies and acceptance over biomed.

Ok, so you wait for the science to catch up before doing anything.

This is not what I said, rick. If you had taken the time to actually read my posts, rather than assuming you have a window into my world, you would know that we are doing plenty. We have seen our son improve his behaviors in so many areas, and at such speed, that we don't want to go another route. Why would we mess with our own personal success?

So what you're saying is ... treating him in any way with chelation or otherwise felt like you were trying to change who he was ... and that was painful for you ... is that what I am reading ... OK if so I can dig that.
Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath--again, we ARE treating him. Just not with biomed. He IS changing his behaviors, but with therapy, not with diet or methyl B12, or chelation. Chelation and other treatments are FINE for other people, but they are just not our personal choice. It is not painful for me to see him change negative aspects of his personality, quite the contrary. But I hope he retains his unique way of looking at the world. Otherwise, he just wouldn't be Eli.

I refuse to apologize to any of you for doing what I believe to be best for my children. This USED to be a forum where parents were not judged by the path of treatment they chose for their children, that has changed dramatically in the past year. It has become a place I no longer wish to visit. It has changed, and not for the better--in my opinion. When did ostracizing a fellow parent ever help? Many of you have implied that I am not doing enough for my child just because we haven't gone the biomed route, that I am "doing nothing." None of you know me, or my child. How dare you assume that you know more than I do about my own child. It's only a short step to call me a child-abuser because I don't inject him with vitamins, chelate, restrict his diet, or give him a variety of supplements daily. I'm sure if I stayed, it would come to that eventually.

Unlike the majority of the people who responded, with such hatred and anger and distrust of my own personal motivations, I wish you all well and the best of luck, no matter which path you choose. I do not sit in judgment, as most of you do now, have in the past, and probably will in the future. Your actions only drive differing opinions and points of view, but I guess that's what you want. I'm happy to get away from such negativity.

quantumerik
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 7:50 am

Postby quantumerik » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:23 am

Eli's mom, there HAVE been very rare instances of children recovering from autism without biomedical intervention. If you're extremely lucky, maybe your child will just grow out of it with behavioral therapies as Raun Kaufman did.

Just don't count on it.

I'm sorry you don't believe in the whole-body medicine practiced by those in the DAN! movement. Testing and diagnosing a child's body chemistry and medical issues has demonstrated that Autism is a conglomeration of diseases..a whole-body disorder. If you choose to allow those medical issues to continue to plague your child, all you have (as I see it) is a vague hope that ignoring those problems won't hinder his/her development as you proceed with other therapies, etc.

To me, that's just like gammbling with somebody else's fortune.

Best of luck to you and your family. I hope the dice fall in your child's favor.

Erik

P.S. I misspelled gammbling to avoid being censored by the board's word filter...

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Yep

Postby srinath » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:30 am

Elis mom wrote:<snip>
I have NEVER said that anyone who takes part in that type of activity is harming their child, or does not love them. I pointed out that you should all do a lot of research, and that includes scientific evidence, not just anecdotal evidence.
<snip>


See that is precisely the problem. Scientific evidence takes a lot of research, and hence a lot of money, and many of the parties involved have tons of $$ and are using it to block any real research. CDC hiding the data, Big Pharma pushing a pamphlet campain with pediatricians whihc say vaccines aren't the cause etc etc ... doing the research is going to take a lot of $$$ and point the blame back at them, and hence no motive for doing it. Then there is always the issue of ASD kids not being their best customers in the future if they are cured.
That leaves us with word of mouth and personal experience anecdotes.
I even thought and hope some pharma comapny with no history of making vaccines will be interested in marketing DMPS or any new chelator and will sink the $$ into research.
Cool.
Srinath.

respect
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:52 am

Postby respect » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:46 am

Elismom, i dont see any venom, and I certainly DONT see any attack in this thread upon you personally. This isnt about YOU. Its about the topics YOU and others brought up for discussion.

There is a big difference between healthy debate and personal attack. For those who take offence at comments contrary to their own beliefs, please believe me, its nothing to do with YOU as a person. Do i HAVE to agree with you to like you, to value you as a person?

If i started talking about the antichrist and devil worhip on this board, should I get pissed off because people dont agree that I think devil worshipers are our friends? or that they have a lot to offer society?

If anyone wants to make things personal on this board, they would have to do better than just post a few comments on this board. We are all way too long in the tooth and too thick skinned for that. If anyone's feelings are hurt on this board, well, then they just aint gonna make it in the real world of autism. This fight is the fight of my life and my child's life and its brutal out there.

There is a definite RIGHT and WRONG way of approaching autism today. That very fact makes the issue of autism, and living with autism rife with debate.

What's the wrong way you ask? Taking for granted everything your uninterested mainstream GP and paediatrician tells you and doing nothing for your child based on their instruction. Unfortunately, this has been my experience with GP's and paed's. The RIGHT way? Doing it for yourself, researching, finding the best most knowledgeable people there are to help your child. The mode of intervention is up to the invididual but for many parents, they have been told there is NOTHING to do. Its useless, hopeless. Dont bother. biomed is bunkum and so is ABA, anyway its too costly and you can't afford it, yada yada bloody yada. Send your kid to a special school and hope for the best.

If I want to send my kid to swim with dolphins or have him involved in a Lupron trial that is MY BUSINESS. My child is MY responsibility. I can disagree with you when i think what you are doing is unethical, wrong or useless, but I can disagree in a way that does not include your "personality". If disagreeing is spewing venom or venting spleens, sheesh, you should work for a newspaper or get into politics. I have done both, and that is where the spleens are vented and the venom spewed. This board is pretty tame by comparison.

If we all agreed with each other, there would definitely be something wrong. Science for starters, would never have evolved if everyone agreed. What is this thing about "consensus" in today's world? We have it in grade school (circle time, agreeing to disagree, etc etc.) In my view when i see something wrong, i call it, and i do it vocally. I usually don't take any prisoners where my child is concerned. But even then, i refrain from personal attack. But i never forget that its a war out there, fighting autism. You are fighting your family, your community, the medical and educational establishment and the government. It never stops and very few people are on your side.

We have been brainwashed, generally to accept what the medical establishment has told us to be true. (I use the royal "we")

I think this board illustrates that you can't fool all the people all the time. Such a well rounded group of informed, objective and concerned people! I wish you were all my neighbours.

MCA
Posts: 2124
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:21 pm

Postby MCA » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:39 pm

Kumbaya, friends, kumbaya...

Respect am I missing the boat here?

respect wrote:Its useless, hopeless. Dont bother. biomed is bunkum and so is ABA, anyway its too costly and you can't afford it, yada yada bloody yada. Send your kid to a special school and hope for the best.



Do you really think ABA is crapola? Maybe I'm misunderstanding. The aspie in me is a little slow on the sarcasm interpretation. :wink: Are you joking?

I am kind of excited that I think I may be some sort of shill. I really don't even know what a shill is. But if I am a shill it's an ABA shill. I believe in that methodology 100% when practiced correctly and individualized.

HEY I have an idea. Back to the TWOP board I like so much there's an "Unpopular Opinions" section for each TV show... should autismweb.com have an "unpopular opinions" section? Like anyone who thinks biomed is caca, or ABA is a huge ripoff, can just go there, vent, and not get all attacked.

OK, OK, OK, this is my first vent...

MCA's "Unpopular Opinions" vent
Autism is a catch-all phrase with a ton of subtypes. My kid and your kid are nothing alike even with the same diagnosis. They will progress and regress at different rates from different interventions.

Biomedical is called "biomedical" to give it credibility and sound like "medical." (Ooh snap! I've thought this for the longest time...)

Certain treatments from biomedical work miracles for some kids, INCLUDING MINE, those same treatments don't work or can be harmful (*gasp*) to others with the exact same "autism" diagnosis.

Mainstream doctors are behind the times and don't care enough about autism. They also care more about getting sued than about finding the truth or helping the children they treat.

Alternative doctors are profiting off of desperate parents and don't always believe in what they are selling or do enough research to know if their programs could be bull or even harmful.

There are exceptions in both camps.

ABA works for every kid on the spectrum if done right. (I know! :shock: I know! :shock: Oh yes, I went there! And it felt good! I'm an ABA shill! (tm Srianth) )

ABA is ridiculously overpriced for the qualifications of the therapists providing it, with the exception of the supervisor, usually. It's not a ripoff, though, because it works. It's just taking advantage of desperate parents. Like parents paying an overinflated sticker price for an extra safe car.
But I'd like to know where you have that 20K ABA program Srianth. Where I am a 40 hour program could reach 100K. If you can get a decent ABA program for 20K then that's a great place. (WHich is funny cos' I know you were mentioning it like 20K is outrageous.)

Anyway, everyone please stop YELLING at each other. Discuss quackwatch if you want but stop getting all mean about it. It stinks.
Last edited by MCA on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

respect
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:52 am

Postby respect » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:41 pm

Yes, i was using the lowest form of wit in the quote above!


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