Quackwatch

Discuss autism theories, media stories, and efforts to put ASD on the government agenda here.

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BTDT
Posts: 3492
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:02 pm

Postby BTDT » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:18 am

And there IS medical proof out there.


Where?

Kristal
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:29 pm

Postby Kristal » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:43 am

BTDT wrote:
And there IS medical proof out there.


Where?



Try here for starters.

http://www.generationrescue.org/evidence_reports.html

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

Nope

Postby srinath » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:30 am

Winnie wrote:Kathleen,

Hey -- you are very welcome. I'm still looking for those thread "statistics" on name-calling though. :wink:

Srinath,

You posted:

Opinion not backed by personal experience = dishonesty


I admit to having difficulty following your logic...as you would therefore be reasoning that the Geiers are suffering from elevated levels of testosterone. whoa :shock:



That is the narrowest interpretation I have ever heard ...
They have seen it work on their patients. That makes it anecdotal evidence. Depending on how well they picked their patients and how they documented their treatment and what not ... its even .... gasp ... scientific evidence.
Alex's mom - Now about skydiving - you probably have seen photos or news articles or on TV or in movies. That makes it all valid as an anecdotal evidence. Second hand and anecdotal. try it yourself and its first hand anecdotal (if you live to talk about it)
With winnie we dont hear anyhting about how she arrived at her anti chelation stand. If you tried it and are against it I'll understand. She never posts anything like that.
Cool.
Srinath.

LM
Posts: 848
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:54 pm

Postby LM » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:59 am

seems like mainstream docs can't win. Primary care doctors are having to deal with managed care providers and have to treat more patients in a day than they can many times handle. We expect them to be informed on the slough of medications out there and at the same time informed about "alternative" therapies. There are 7 or so different statins out there that essentially do the same thing - do all doctors have the time to read the entire JAMA or the plethora of "me too" drug studies out there? Hardly. They are also inundated with pharma reps throughout the day marketing those "me too" drugs.

I don't think the majority of physicians out there went to med school hoping one day they'd have to know what drug is on what provider formulary, or hoping that managed care would diminish the quality time they could spend with their patients, or that they'd spend a great amount of time dealing with "self-diagnosing patients" who think they are more informed than the dr. because they saw a 60 second drug commercial. I've yet to meet a primary care doc who is raking in the $$ - mostly they're overworked and underpaid.

Grandma C
Posts: 1370
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:04 am

Postby Grandma C » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:04 pm

GEEZ GUYS, CAN'T YOU LET THIS SUBJECT REST?....OR MOVE IT TO THE BIOMED SIDE. I DON'T SEE ANY GOOD COMING FROM THE SAME COUPLE OF PEOPLE ARGUING BACK AND FORTH...WHO PLANS ON CHANGING THE MINDS OF THE PEOPLE ARGUING BACK? YOU MIGHT NOTICE THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER POSTS ON THIS SIDE FROM (MAYBE) NEW PEOPLE WANTING ANSWERS AND HELP WITH THEIR IMPORTANT QUESTIONS. I AM SURE IT IS DEPRESSING TO READ NOTHING BUT THIS TOPIC GOING ON AND ON ESP. WITH THE ARGUMENTATIVE TURN THE WHOLE THREAD HAS TAKEN. IT IS PROBABLY DRIVING PEOPLE AWAY.

TO THOSE OF YOU WHO STRONGLY BELIEVE IN BIOMED, WHAT IS WRONG WITH DISCUSSING IT ON THE BIOMED SIDE? MY KIDS NEVER TRIED IT SO I DON'T KNOW FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. HOWEVER, I BELIEVE THE EXPERTS...TAMI & DANA (IN MY OPINION) AND I KNOW THEY HAVE HAD WONDERFUL RESULTS WITH IT. I MET GAVIN (TAMI'S SON) AND HE IS SO SWEET AND SO "TYPICAL" TO ME. IT MUST WORK FOR SOME. MY LITTLE EVAN IS DOING WELL AND GETTING BETTER WITHOUT IT. DIFFERENT CHILDREN...DIFFERENT PROBLEMS.

I AM CERTAINLY NOT PUTTING DOWN EITHER SIDES BELIEFS, I JUST WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME OF THIS RADICAL TALK AND "PUT DOWNS" PLACED ON THE OTHER SIDE (AS MENTIONED BEFORE) SO THAT ALL PARENTS CAN GET HELP WITH THEIR ISSUES HERE :) .

LOVE & BEST WISHES,

GRANDMA C

respect
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:52 am

Postby respect » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:22 pm

HTRTC where are you ?

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

That

Postby srinath » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:32 pm

LM wrote:seems like mainstream docs can't win. Primary care doctors are having to deal with managed care providers and have to treat more patients in a day than they can many times handle. We expect them to be informed on the slough of medications out there and at the same time informed about "alternative" therapies. There are 7 or so different statins out there that essentially do the same thing - do all doctors have the time to read the entire JAMA or the plethora of "me too" drug studies out there? Hardly. They are also inundated with pharma reps throughout the day marketing those "me too" drugs.

I don't think the majority of physicians out there went to med school hoping one day they'd have to know what drug is on what provider formulary, or hoping that managed care would diminish the quality time they could spend with their patients, or that they'd spend a great amount of time dealing with "self-diagnosing patients" who think they are more informed than the dr. because they saw a 60 second drug commercial. I've yet to meet a primary care doc who is raking in the $$ - mostly they're overworked and underpaid.


That's hardly an excuse ... So your mechanic is going to blow up your car and say ... well gee your car is amongst 1000's of new models out, and there is a flood of information and I cant read it all for the filthy pay they pay me ... so tough luck ... Its a flood of info and who ever reads the most becomes the best and the care they show their patients shows in the effect it has and maybe they can set up a private practice and set their own wages ... you know ... like the good DAN docs are doing ...
Cool.
Srinath.

LittleManzMamma
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:21 pm

Postby LittleManzMamma » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:33 pm

FRIENDLY REMINDER...

webmaster wrote:
Grandma C wrote:JUST MY LITTLE TWO CENTS WORTH. I HAD HOPED WHEN I SUGGESTED DIVIDING THIS SITE INTO SEPARATE "GENERAL" AND "BIOMED" CATEGORIES IT WOULD RESOLVE THIS TYPE OF PROBLEM.
I REALLY WANTED TO SEE PEOPLE GET HELP ON THE GENERAL SIDE FOR ISSUES NOT PERTAINING TO BIO-MEDS AND WAS PLEASED WHEN THE WEBMASTER THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA AND FOLLOWED THROUGH WITH IT. SOMEHOW, THE BIO-MED, DAN, ETC. SNUCK BACK TO THE WRONG SIDE.

I THINK THESE HARD FEELINGS COULD BE AVOIDED IF CATEGORIES ARE FOLLOWED. EVERYONE ON THIS SITE LOVES A CHILD ON THE AUTISM SPECTRUM AND THERE SHOULD BE ROOM & RESPECT FOR EVERYONE'S OPINIONS.

THERE ARE SO MANY PATHS TO FOLLOW - GOD HELP US ALL AS WE STRUGGLE TO FIND THE RIGHT ONE!

LOVE,

GRANDMA C


Thanks, Grandma C, and let me add that we did divide the board into a support/advice/education category and a biomedical category last year. We did this at the request of people who were not interested in biomedical and who didn't want to read biomedical posts. I would like to request that in the future, if you have a biomedical post (EITHER FOR OR AGAINST), that you please post it in the biomedical category.

give a mouse a cookie
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:40 pm

Postby give a mouse a cookie » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:48 pm

:idea: Do you think that maybe this was posted in this section so that it would be read by everyone and not just the biomedical supporters/practicers?
just a thought

LittleManzMamma
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:21 pm

Postby LittleManzMamma » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:58 pm

give a mouse a cookie wrote::idea: Do you think that maybe this was posted in this section so that it would be read by everyone and not just the biomedical supporters/practicers?
just a thought


Certainly a good point. However, based on several statements by the original poster (which have since been deleted so I cannot quote them), she "knew" that her statements on this board would "stir things up". She also mentioned on several ocassions that she has felt less support or acceptance of her opinion on this board in particular... which leaves me to wonder why she didn't post it on one of those other boards that she speaks so well of. Just a thought.

For the record, I was interested in the post (though give little validity to the quackwatch site in particular) and have found the feedback (for the mostpart) to be worth hearing. But it certainly seems that she expected much of what she got... and in that case, so be it.

LM
Posts: 848
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:54 pm

Postby LM » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:32 pm

Srinath, that was not my point - my point is that doctors are not the genisis of the problem and do not deserve the full brunt of the blame. I'm saying they are part of a system that doesn't allow them to do what they went to school to do: practice medicine.

I don't get your comparison between doctors and mechanics and I'm sure some of the doctors who post/view this message board may tend to disagree with your analogy.

maybe they can set up a private practice and set their own wages ... you know ... like the good DAN docs are doing ...


yeah, like some of the good DAN! docs are doing...I guess sometimes you just have to go where the money is.

LM

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

My

Postby srinath » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:59 pm

My doctor is certainly part of the problem. Not a question, even if the CDC reverses its stand, my ped will still insist that mercury is perfectly safe.
Some of the DAN - OK I guess I have only seen good DAN doc's so far. Go where the money is - I actually pay my DAN doc or Dr Geier the same amount as my ped.
Cool.
Srinath.

Kristal
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 3:29 pm

Postby Kristal » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:33 pm

yeah, like some of the good DAN! docs are doing...I guess sometimes you just have to go where the money is.



You know. A heart specialist, or a psycologist, or a cancer specialist...they charge enormous prices...yet they aren't quacks....and a DAN doctor, an autism specialist, is a dishonest money grubber?? Doesn't make sense to me.

And I don't blame the mainstream doctors. I think for the MOST part, they just follow what they are fed from above (CDC for example) and if they are given one study from the CDC, they are blinded to the 15 that condradict it. I sware there is over 30 supporting the autism/toxic link, and like 5 against. AND the against studies, are taken from another country. (I am no expert on the details...I am sure somone on here could tell you more.)

My point is, that I don't think it is the doctor's fault. For the most part, they believe what they are doing is the best...even if they are misinformed.

They have a lot of conditions to treat...autism is just one of them. There are doctors that are toally closed minded, and there are others who are skeptical, but at least willing to listen, and then there are those who think outside of the box, and are foward thinkers...like many DAN doctors. They put there jobs and reputations on the line...it isn't some "easy money" thing...it is a very brave thing that they do...to go upstream...when all the other salmon are going the other way. (by the way, salmon have mercury too. hehe.)

So you can't just say DANs are in it for the money (yes some may be...) but the majority of them are really trying to help. And have made themselves outcasts to the mainstream medical community.

Way to Go DAN!!

--Kristal

Winnie
Posts: 4227
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:48 pm

Postby Winnie » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:45 pm

I sware there is over 30 supporting the autism/toxic link, and like 5 against.


Kristal,

Just wondering --- are you talking about studies here? I wanted to know where to find this -- are you referring to the GenRescue site?

When I get a chance, I'll take some of my questions/comments to the biomed side of the forum (where we should probably all migrate with these issues at this point).

Thanks!
Winnie
"Make it a powerful memory, the happiest you can remember."

respect
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:52 am

Postby respect » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:05 pm

I like the mechanic analogy. I take my autistic child to the doctor asking for help. He responds by saying "sorry cant help until you tell me what is wrong". What kind of a mechanic works like that?? A mechanic would investigate and find the problem AND "fix" it.

doctors generally dont even want us in the door. My own has stated from the outset, there is little he can do, or anyone can "do" about autism, that it is genetic and it is a waste of time/money trying, that he has never seen any improvement with biomed (when by the way, i KNOW he has not seen biomed or ever had personal experience with it)

Yet, they still get paid for my visit.

mom_of_an_autie
Posts: 734
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:18 pm

Postby mom_of_an_autie » Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:20 pm

I am not going to make this a personal issue but the comment about doctors having to listen to "self diagnosing" patients was a bit offensive to me. I spoke the word Autism to my sons pediatrician who in return stated "I dont see it in him. He has developed so normally. He shows affection autism is not possible" Not only was it POSSIBLE it was DEFINITE. And for the record yeah I know more than my sons doctor on Autism and she has admitted it....So if I wasnt one of those PITAs who knows when my son would have been dx'd. I dont expect doctors to know all the answers but the DO need to listen to their patients and THEY just might learn something....

respect
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:52 am

Postby respect » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:19 pm

here here mom!

littlebopeep
Posts: 1387
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:33 pm

Postby littlebopeep » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:02 pm

I have to admit that I've been putting off a routine visit to the doc just because I think at this point she wouldn't be very helpful anyway. I am one of those parents who thinks she knows more than the doc about autism, just because I've been fervently studying the subject and I don't see evidence that our pediatrician has much knowledge on this at all.

Alex saw the doc at 2 1/2 and, after I expressed concern about his lack of vocabulary, she asked just a few cursory questions about how many words he was saying and said that she wasn't concerned. At the time I was OK with that, but now I think I would be tempted to put HER on that Quackwatch list!!!

If a parent isn't so very bio-med oriented, as I am not, what is the purpose of a pediatrician, other than for an annual physical? What regular (non DAN!) doctor knows more about autism than we parents do? I'm serious!
Fred, 7, NT
Barney, 5, autism

LM
Posts: 848
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 10:54 pm

Postby LM » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:06 pm

mom of an autie - I am reposting my quote as I don't recall mentioning anything about autism and self diagnosing:

I don't think the majority of physicians out there went to med school hoping one day they'd have to know what drug is on what provider formulary, or hoping that managed care would diminish the quality time they could spend with their patients, or that they'd spend a great amount of time dealing with "self-diagnosing patients" who think they are more informed than the dr. because they saw a 60 second drug commercial.


And Kristal, I never said all DAN! doctors are in it for the money - please re-read my post.

For the record I'm sure there are some really great DAN! doctors out there who are in it for the right reasons. But there are also some quacks out there who tarnish the reputations of those good DAN! doctors. However I wouldn't call DAN! doctors "autism specialists" because they're not. A Heart or Cancer specialist doesn't become a specialist in his/her field by attending a weekend conference.

I don't see why this has to be an argument of absolutes. I don't recall anywhere in all of my posts where I said don't go to a DAN! doc or don't do biomed - I simply recounted my experiences with both.

LM

srinath
Posts: 941
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:33 pm

What

Postby srinath » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:01 pm

Dan docs atleast the ones I have known of seem to get into dan first and foremost to help their own children. Now as parents we know so much about our kids we typically rival doctors in knowledge. Now if you were a doctor imagine how much you will know if you add in parent of an autistic kid to the menu.
Weekend conference or not, what it takes to become a DAN doc is ... an open mind. I have learnt enough from weekend conferences to know that with an interest and a weekend conference if you follow it up with a good bit of dilligence its possible to know a lot.
Cool.
Srinath.


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