Debate on acceptance/treatment

Discuss autism theories, media stories, and efforts to put ASD on the government agenda here.

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r's mom
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Postby r's mom » Wed May 31, 2006 11:30 pm

BTDT

From Diane's post I didn't think she was saying that she thought that the behaviours were heinous or that her child or any other child was awful. I read from her post that the difference in doing those behaviours to not doing those behaviours was that she did not accept the doctors comments at the time is of DX and that she implemented the treatment that she saw fit for her son. I presume the doc had said that there was no hope of recovery.

Maybe her post could have been taken the wrong way however a lot of posts can and have been taken all sorts of ways in this and other threads.

She did add emphasis to get her point across but she hasn't been the only one to do that.

srinath
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Unique

Postby srinath » Wed May 31, 2006 11:34 pm

We can chelate him all we want, he is still is going to be his own guy. Stubborn, ego clashes with mommy, and immediate kissing to compensate for mistakes and getting mommy mad ... instant kiss and see if she's still angry looking, if so, repeat ... till she is not. Usually works too. BTW he would attempt to slap the sad/angry expression off her face when he was younger, now that he can kiss, he's doing that ...
Chelation and anyhting else we do, no way it will change him. It will bring more of him into his own more of the time.
Cool.
Srinath.

LittleManzParents
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Postby LittleManzParents » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:52 am

srinath: What does chelation have to do with the price of rice in China?? You're a funny dude!

BTDT:
For the person with road rage, do you seperate the road rage from the person and dismiss it? Do you think, "He's really a sweet man, he just has a problem with cursing when he drives."

That's exactly what we've been saying about my dad for years! :lol:
How old is your son?

Mary
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Postby Mary » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:32 am

Do you think, "He's really a sweet man, he just has a problem with cursing when he drives." Or do you think, "He's a jerk!", or "He's a real uptight person!"

What makes us who we are anyway? Isn't how we act towards others and behave in the world around us?


You're right that as adults without disabilities, we are judged by our actions, because we can control them. More so than our words, it's what we do -- how we treat others -- that defines us.

But for children in general, and those with autism in particular, no, I don't think their behaviors define them because there is the question of control at that age, and also the issue of disability. Still, confusing as this is, we teach our son that he should strive for better control of his behavior, especially when it comes to respecting the rights of others. (No hitting). The autism isn't an excuse. We still have high expectations of him.

And you're right, when I see some guy acting like a jerk on the highway, my first impulse is to think, "What a jerk!" But then I try to remind myself that maybe something awful happened to him today and I should relax and let my blood pressure go down!

My Dad actually is a sweet man who, now that he's elderly, turns into a monster on the road. :lol: I don't know what that's about.

Kev
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Postby Kev » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:24 am

How could I resist participating in a thread like this? ;)

There are so many frankly bizarre misconceptions about 'acceptance' and its wider cousin 'neurodiversity' that I'm occasionaly driven to create whole new blog posts about the idea.

OK so acceptance is (IMO)....

1) Acceptance of the fact that your child is autistic.
2) Finding a way to work with that fact rather than fight against it.

There is a spectrum (if you'll forgive the pun) of acceptance. On one extreme we have the 'cannot ever accept' as personified by the Generation Rescue stance. Here's a quote from Erik's good friend John Best Junior, GR Rescue Angel regarding his own son:

That's what my son with severe autism faces. If he dies young, I will rejoice for him that he has excaped the nightmare that was his life


This is something we should all be fighting tooth and nail. Its almost certainly what Karon McCarron had in mind as she afixed the plastic bag to her baby girls head.

On the other extreme we have total acceptance of the condition of being autistic. I guess I'd put myself there.

Then we have 'acceptance's' close cousin - neurodiversity. Neurodiversity takes acceptance one step further and not only accepts differences but recognises it as equally valid and does not seek to alter it. I guess I'm there too. NB: Neurodiversity is not limited to accpetance of autism. The clue is in the name ;)

Its been my experience that acceptance/neurodiversity people are usually people who are highly sceptical of everything until they have thoroughly researched it to death. I don't see that with a lot (not all) treatment (before jumping on me read the below section on acceptance vs treatment) supporters.

Before I get onto that though what about this acceptance vs treatment issue?

Its a non-issue. Nobody, I repeat, nobody that I know who follows acceptance or neurodiversity opinion thinks that treatment as a concept is a bad thing. There are - as with all things - shades of grey. If your child head-bangs or smears faeces or has terrible GI issues then it would be madness to ignore those things.

However, treating these issues and treating autism itself is two different things. It is not required to remove or cure or treat autism to treat these other issues. If someone says they want to cure or treat autism then I personally have an issue with that.

So maybe treatment is also spectrum. On one hand you have people who quite openly state they have no desire to cure their childs autism but they do wish to alleviate the suffering their kids painful comorbidities can cause. More power to them - thats what I do too. However, you also have people who cannot seem to differentiate between something someone is and something someone has.

I said above I don't think of people who are attempting to treat autism as particularly critical thinkers. There really does seem to be a subsection of biomedical based people who cannot look deeper than the surface. Erik's a good example. I'm pretty sure if David Ge*i*er told Erik that paint thinners cured autism he'd be trying it within the week. Look at the furore over Tim Buie's recent findings of GI issues in autism.

There's a section of people who see the fact that Buie's team are reporting GI issues in autistic kids as:

a) proof Wakefield was right
b) proof that there is a new form of GI issue associated with autism
c) proof that GI issues = autism

when in fact none of these things are true, or even reported by Buie. I have a feeling Buie would be horrified to be thought of as supporting Wakefield. He's simply reporting his own research results. Here's a statement from Buie made less then 3 months before his paper was accepted for publication.

...Dr Timothy Buie, a paediatric gastroenterologist who works at a clinic specialising in autism and related disorders at Massachusetts General Hospital. Dr Buie has carried out colonoscopies of hundreds of children, both with and without autism, and he has seen nothing to him that autistic children have a new or distinctive form of bowel disease.”

“I am not sure I can support, at this point, [the view] that the findings of colitis are novel or different from other conditions that we know,” Dr Buie told the BBC.”


See the difference? Its important. Yes, his new paper indicates GI issues, no he doesn't beleive (or state) these issues are unique either at all or to autism in particular.

Shades of grey.

Or my good friend dgdavies who still can't quite got her head around the fact I'd 'leave my daughter blind'. What she fails to grasp is the distinction I made when referring to my role as parent of an autistic child. I said that I will not seek a cure for autism for my daughter but when she's able to communicate her needs/wants accurately, if she told me she wanted a cure (assuming one was available) then I'd move heaven and earth to make that happen.

I tried to get dgdavies to see that the same thing applies to my hypothetical blind daughter. As soon as she's able to communicate her needs/wants accurately then the decision becomes hers and hers alone which I would support without reservation.

livsparents
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Postby livsparents » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:06 am

Welcome back and STOP WIT DA BLIND ISSUE! :wink:

I still have to argue with the GI issues. I have backed off of the GI Issues cause autism (although it IS a possibility). I DO however want it known that GI issues are one of the SYMPTOMS of autism (note that I am still of the opinion that my child both IS AND HAS autism). To deny that there are physiological as well as psycholgical symptoms is doing a disservice to the community...
Bill
Last edited by livsparents on Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

littlebopeep
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Postby littlebopeep » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:24 am

Kev!

Welcome back!
Fred, 7, NT
Barney, 5, autism

Mary
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Postby Mary » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:14 am

I said that I will not seek a cure for autism for my daughter but when she's able to communicate her needs/wants accurately, if she told me she wanted a cure (assuming one was available) then I'd move heaven and earth to make that happen.


Hi Kev, You make an interesting point, but I have a question for you.

Not speaking about your daughter in particular, as I know nothing about her or you, but in general, what happens if a child is never able to communicate his needs/wants accurately? Or what if there is a treatment that works well at a young age but not at a later age? Should a parent make that choice for the child? Is not making that choice in effect choosing anyway?

Mine is a little older that most of the kids whose parents post here, and he acquired speech very late but is now very verbal. He remembers EVERYTHING from the preschool/Kindergarten years when he wasn't verbal. Every frustration caused by a lack of language, every time someone did something that upset him. He wouldn't use sign (no eye contact) and for some reason hated PECS at that time. I made the choice for him to do various treatments that led to speech (and got lucky in the process -- nothing works for everyone). He is glad he can complain about the things that upset him now. But I did make those decisions for him. In fact, he still complains about things that occurred years ago, before he had speech. We simply didn't know at that time in the past what was bothering him. Now we do.

dgdavis64
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Postby dgdavis64 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:56 am

BTDT wrote:It was not the description of the behaviors that bothered me, but the way the description was presented. To me the behaviors were being described as some sort of horrible disease.

My son does have some behaviors that are different. Some are difficult to deal with, such as aggression and tantrums, and some are just different, like his vocalizations and stims. And as you said, most of these behaviors are just a part of life for us. The aggression and tantrums are generally a result of my son's extremely limited communication skills, at least that is what we believe is the cause. And we certainly are trying to decrease the tantrumming and aggression, and it has improved, but still causes problems at times. We try to prevent the problem behaviors as much as possible by being aware of triggers. When tantrums are a problem we give him room to tantrum and make sure nobody gets hurt, and make sure we don't reward the tantrum while still acknowledging the communication behind the tantrum. I'd say that right now, aggression is a problem maybe once a week if that, and tantrums about once a week as well. Of course a lot of that depends on what we having going on, if we are going somewhere strange where he doesn't know what to expect, then we might see an increase in difficult behavior.

I don't have a problem with his stimming for the most part. My son has very limited interests, and despite the best efforts of many, he has no interest in most toys, videos, etc. He does love gross motor activities, like swinging, jumping, climbing, and water play, so we encourage these activities as much as possible.

I certainly would not hesitate to describe my son's behaviors, they are not shameful. His behavior is who he is, and isn't that true for all of us? For the person with road rage, do you seperate the road rage from the person and dismiss it? Do you think, "He's really a sweet man, he just has a problem with cursing when he drives." Or do you think, "He's a jerk!", or "He's a real uptight person!"

What makes us who we are anyway? Isn't how we act towards others and behave in the world around us?



BTDT,
A pattern is forming for whatever reason that you are twisting my statements/opinions into something they're not. My post regarding what my son would be doing right now if I had "just accepted" what the Dr told me, was my testimony/frustration to the fact that my son is heavy metal toxic and needs to be treated as such. How many other children are out there living the autistic life because they're heavy metal toxic and were misdiagnosed by the VERY same medical establishment that caused them to be heavy metal toxic in the first place? What about these children?

My point is/was that some parents don't have the wherewithall or the means to reseach/question what Drs tell them and many children are suffering because of this and the FACT that I'm SO glad I questioned what the the Dr told me regarding my kids and they're SO much better for it.
Don't you think these children deserve to be treated if they have a heavy metal toxicity instead of autism? ACCEPTANCE CAN LEAD TO CHILDREN NEEDLESSLY BEING LEFT UNTREATED. It had NOTHING to do with a persons value. How you even arrived at that conclusion really stumps me.

I'm sorry if the way I express myself in the written form offends you. Sometimes the written form isn't meant to be taken SO literally. Maybe you just don't like me. Perhaps I conjure up emotions you don't want to deal with or "accept," I don't know. It's amazing how no one else who read my post misunderstood it the same way you did. And this has happened in the past as well. So in the future, you can just ignore my posts and that way you won't be offended for whatever imagined, twisted or misunderstood reason.


Kev wrote:
" As soon as she's able to communicate her needs/wants accurately then the decision becomes hers and hers alone which I would support without reservation."


The very nature of parenting is that we have to make decisions for our children until they become mature enough to make these decisions on their own. Why is it so easy for you to make some decisions for her but not all? If Megan says she wants ice cream for dinner, is that what you give her? What litmus test do you employ to decide which decisions you'll make for your daughter and which ones you'll let her communicate to you?


For someone who is extremely careful about "not placing your own moral jugements" on your daughter, you certainly are free- handed with them for everyone else. And just as BTDT described the driver with road rage. How do you SEPARATE your moral judgements from who you are as a person?
Last edited by dgdavis64 on Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Alex's mom
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Postby Alex's mom » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:38 am

Its a non-issue. Nobody, I repeat, nobody that I know who follows acceptance or neurodiversity opinion thinks that treatment as a concept is a bad thing. There are - as with all things - shades of grey. If your child head-bangs or smears faeces or has terrible GI issues then it would be madness to ignore those things.


Of course.
But...where does one draw the line between when intervention stops and acceptance starts? Autism is pervasive and colors everything in sight. How do you tease apart interventions that make one more functional but leave the autism intact? And just to clarify- I'm not talking biomed/aversives/cures etc at all here, I'm referring to trying to teach a child skills, functions they are missing and needing. I'm not even talking about the outcome, just about the effort.
Your following paragraph caught my eye

However, treating these issues and treating autism itself is two different things. It is not required to remove or cure or treat autism to treat these other issues. If someone says they want to cure or treat autism then I personally have an issue with that


Have you read Steve Gutstein's RDI theory? It is very thought provoking. He actually redefines autism, or what he calls the "core" deficits of autism.
According to him, these are in dynamic thinking, social referencing and co-regulation, emotion sharing etc. (to name a few). These are present even in the highest functioning of individuals and I'm sure all of us recognize our kids' limitations in these areas. Gutstein (unlike others, parents included) feels that speech, sensory issues, ADHD, etc are comorbidities and not part of the autism per se. (Personally, I don't care what you call them since they are fairly major issues, but it makes for a nice academic discussion and your post is bringing it into focus). If you agree with Gutstein's definition (who gets his stuff from a large body of psych research, pretty well referenced on his website), then you would address the co-occurs but not the core issues? I'm just clarifying to see if I understood correctly.
I guess I can't see why one wouldn't want to address the autism per se. Not in a "cure it or forever be doomed" mentality, that is not my feeling at all. Not at the expense of logic or senseless treatments. And we never know how much our efforts will pay off, and that's OK too. But why wouldn't one want to try (if hypothetically treating autism -not just teaching skills, was really possible).
My take on things is very much colored by what I have witnessed with my own child (as I'm sure is true for all of us here).
If someone has a stroke- do you just buy them a wheel chair or do you try to help them walk again ? Some may walk normally, some may just take a few steps with a walker, some will never walk- but how do you know unless you've done therapy? This is how I feel about his autism- I think he has the wheel chair (more or less)- he can ask for things, express himself, doesn't cause any problems, we can pretty much take him anywhere and do anything we would do with an NT child. My quality of life is better. Is his quality of life better? Definitely ! Can his quality of life 20 years from now be better, if he was less autistic ? You bet ! This is IMO what it's all about (and I don't mean college and a wife, I mean independence, choices, friends). So why would I not want to make him "less" autistic (if such a thing were possible)? I see your points, but nevertheless, ASD or not, parents make decisions for their kids all the time, until their kids are older- why shouldn't we?


Alex's mom

Kev
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Postby Kev » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:10 am

Mary wrote:what happens if a child is never able to communicate his needs/wants accurately? Or what if there is a treatment that works well at a young age but not at a later age? Should a parent make that choice for the child? Is not making that choice in effect choosing anyway?


Good questions for which I have no easy answer. I guess I'd have to say I'd need to evaluate the situation at the time. I don't think there's a 'one size fits all'answer.

srinath
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Changing

Postby srinath » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:15 am

LittleManzParents wrote:srinath: What does chelation have to do with the price of rice in China?? You're a funny dude!

BTDT:
For the person with road rage, do you seperate the road rage from the person and dismiss it? Do you think, "He's really a sweet man, he just has a problem with cursing when he drives."

That's exactly what we've been saying about my dad for years! :lol:
How old is your son?


What ... OK Lets try this ...
Rice in china is cheap. They make millions of tonnes of it. If its cheap, they ship it here and its still cheap, so companies sell it cheap, people buy it and feed to autistic kids. Now this rice wont have wheat flour, cos china doesn't have cheap wheat, only cheap rice. True GF rice and our kids get GF rice. Chelation and all bio med works better and ergo ... we need to support cheap rice in china.
OK happy now ... far fetched yes but hey you brought it up. It does have something to do with it.
My point was ... he's not going to become some compliant drone if we chelate him. He's going to be the same, sweet, and naughty and cute and playful and smart and engaging and ... kid he always was.
Cool.
Srinath.

Kev
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Postby Kev » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:18 am

dgdavis64 wrote:The very nature of parenting is that we have to make decisions for our children until they become mature enough to make these decisions on their own. Why is it so easy for you to make some decisions for her but not all? If Megan says she wants ice cream for dinner, is that what you give her? What litmus test do you employ to decide which decisions you'll make for your daughter and which ones you'll let her communicate to you?


I'm going to assume you're not joking.

A comparison between fundamentally altering who someone is and what they have for pudding is a bit facile don't you think?

Autistic adults (and no I'm not necessarily talking about AS, I'm talking about autism) say that they feel a 'cure' would change their perceptions beyond the point where they would feel the were the same person. In all conscience I don't feel that's a decision I can take lightly - or even at all - whilst my daughter can't let me know her thoughts on the matter. In the meantime I have to look at how she is, if she's happy (which she is), if she's learning (which she is), if she's confident (which she is). These things are true if she's autistic or not, blind or not, whatever...


For someone who is extremely careful about "not placing your own moral jugements" on your daughter, you certainly are free- handed with them for everyone else


I retort in kind. Think about it.

How do you SEPARATE your moral judgements from who you are as a person?


I have some beliefs which are based from my morals or ethics. These are mine and I cannot help but pass them on to my immediate family. Something as simple as learning to share a toy, is something I believe should be learnt by all kids if at all possible. However, it sometimes is simply not possible for some kids, for a variety of reasons, to learn that. I wouldn't judge them in such a scenario.
Last edited by Kev on Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

littlebopeep
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Postby littlebopeep » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:22 am

dgdavis64 wrote:BTDT,
A pattern is forming for whatever reason that you are twisting my statements/opinions into something they're not........ How you even arrived at that conclusion really stumps me.

I'm sorry if the way I express myself in the written form offends you. Sometimes the written form isn't meant to be taken SO literally. Maybe you just don't like me. Perhaps I conjure up emotions you don't want to deal with or "accept," I don't know. It's amazing how no one else who read my post misunderstood it the same way you did. And this has happened in the past as well. So in the future, you can just ignore my posts and that way you won't be offended for whatever imagined, twisted or misunderstood reason.



Just for the record, I got the same impression BTDT did, but the discussion didn't involve me, so I didn't say anything at the time.
Fred, 7, NT

Barney, 5, autism

srinath
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Yes ... you nailed it.

Postby srinath » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:23 am

Mary wrote:
I said that I will not seek a cure for autism for my daughter but when she's able to communicate her needs/wants accurately, if she told me she wanted a cure (assuming one was available) then I'd move heaven and earth to make that happen.


Hi Kev, You make an interesting point, but I have a question for you.

Not speaking about your daughter in particular, as I know nothing about her or you, but in general, what happens if a child is never able to communicate his needs/wants accurately? Or what if there is a treatment that works well at a young age but not at a later age? Should a parent make that choice for the child? Is not making that choice in effect choosing anyway?

Mine is a little older that most of the kids whose parents post here, and he acquired speech very late but is now very verbal. He remembers EVERYTHING from the preschool/Kindergarten years when he wasn't verbal. Every frustration caused by a lack of language, every time someone did something that upset him. He wouldn't use sign (no eye contact) and for some reason hated PECS at that time. I made the choice for him to do various treatments that led to speech (and got lucky in the process -- nothing works for everyone). He is glad he can complain about the things that upset him now. But I did make those decisions for him. In fact, he still complains about things that occurred years ago, before he had speech. We simply didn't know at that time in the past what was bothering him. Now we do.


You nailed it. Now ask him if he liked it back then or does he like it now ...
I hope to do the same in a bit when my son gets to the point where he can understand that question and answer it.
In effect what the acceptance group is saying is ... the kid is under 18 and is my dependent, so i dont have to give them the choice to answer that question at all. My kid, my choice. If the kid cant say what he/she wants, too bad, I'll do as I please.
Not me. I prefer to give him the choice as well as equip him to understand/decide and answer it.
Cool.
Srinath.

Kev
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Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 6:39 am

Postby Kev » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:29 am

Alex's mom wrote:But...where does one draw the line between when intervention stops and acceptance starts? Autism is pervasive and colors everything in sight. How do you tease apart interventions that make one more functional but leave the autism intact? And just to clarify- I'm not talking biomed/aversives/cures etc at all here, I'm referring to trying to teach a child skills, functions they are missing and needing. I'm not even talking about the outcome, just about the effort.
Your following paragraph caught my eye


Sure, I get you.

I think its in the intent. There are people who have declared war on autism. It always strikes me as ridiculous and demeaning to hear such things. Then there are people who want to help their kids be well. The two things are different.

An example: my daughter is asthmatic. If it was established tomorrow that inhalers cured autism then I'd carry on giving it to her without batting an eyelid. Her need to breathe is paramount. All other considerations become secondary. I might mourn the loss of the child Meg was but even that would be unfair to her and selfish of me.

Have you read Steve Gutstein's RDI theory? It is very thought provoking. He actually redefines autism, or what he calls the "core" deficits of autism.


Nope - point me to it :) although I don't like the word 'deficits'.

then you would address the co-occurs but not the core issues? I'm just clarifying to see if I understood correctly.


I'll offer a tentative 'yes' based on the proviso I've not actaully read his stuff myself. No disrespect :)

If someone has a stroke- do you just buy them a wheel chair or do you try to help them walk again ?


Well, to me the answer would be to give them the confidence and tools they would need to make their own choice in the matter and then ask.

I see your points, but nevertheless, ASD or not, parents make decisions for their kids all the time, until their kids are older- why shouldn't we?


I'm not advocating making no decisions at all for one's kids. That would be impossible. However some decisions are bigger than others. Have a much larger impact. I have to ask myself - if I were autistic what would I want to do? And then I realise I can't answer that so I listen to people who are autistic.

I'm not saying all autistic people are anti-cure but I believe the vast majority are.
Last edited by Kev on Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

littlebopeep
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Postby littlebopeep » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:33 am

Srinath, you are in rare form today.
Fred, 7, NT

Barney, 5, autism

Kev
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Re: Yes ... you nailed it.

Postby Kev » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:34 am

srinath wrote:In effect what the acceptance group is saying is ... the kid is under 18 and is my dependent, so i dont have to give them the choice to answer that question at all. My kid, my choice. If the kid cant say what he/she wants, too bad, I'll do as I please. Not me. I prefer to give him the choice as well as equip him to understand/decide and answer it.


Seeing as that's the direct opposite of what I actually said, and I don't assume to speak for anyone except myself I'm going to assume you're simply trolling.

Shh....adults are talking.

dgdavis64
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Postby dgdavis64 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:45 am

Kev wrote: if she's happy (which she is), if she's learning (which she is), if she's confident (which she is)

Mom:
How do you know she's these? Did she tell you?

For someone who is extremely careful about "not placing your own moral jugements" on your daughter, you certainly are free- handed with them for everyone else


I retort in kind. Think about it.

Mom:
I haven't stated my stance on my own moral judgements. You stated yours in a different post. Hence, this comment.
Therefore, retorting in kind is moot.


How do you SEPARATE your moral judgements from who you are as a person?


I have some [i]beliefs[/b] which are based from my morals or ethics. These are mine and I cannot help but pass them on to my immediate family. Something as simple as learning to share a toy, is something I believe should be learnt by all kids if at all possible. However, it sometimes is simply not possible for some kids, for a variety of reasons, to learn that. I wouldn't judge them in such a scenario.



Mom:
You missed the point here. Which is, your moral judgements and your beliefs are interconnected in the person you are. They're part of who you are and to think that you can separate them here and there for whatever occasion happens to occur is unrealistic. You are raising your daughter therefore your moral judgements and beliefs are going to form part of the person she becomes. You have no way of controlling your influence over your child if she's growing up in your house.
So saying you don't put your own moral judgements on your daughter is not possible if you're the one raising her.

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dgdavis64
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Postby dgdavis64 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:50 am

littlebopeep wrote:
dgdavis64 wrote:BTDT,
A pattern is forming for whatever reason that you are twisting my statements/opinions into something they're not........ How you even arrived at that conclusion really stumps me.

I'm sorry if the way I express myself in the written form offends you. Sometimes the written form isn't meant to be taken SO literally. Maybe you just don't like me. Perhaps I conjure up emotions you don't want to deal with or "accept," I don't know. It's amazing how no one else who read my post misunderstood it the same way you did. And this has happened in the past as well. So in the future, you can just ignore my posts and that way you won't be offended for whatever imagined, twisted or misunderstood reason.



Just for the record, I got the same impression BTDT did, but the discussion didn't involve me, so I didn't say anything at the time.



Then I'm so glad I was able to clear that up for you too. And anyone else decides to speak up about it.

Beware of the pharma trollbot shills posting from anonymous proxy servers


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