How to reduce stimming

Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism.

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Nikkie111
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:18 am

FatherOf2 wrote:I ended up purchasing the complete mutation report from nutrahacker. The neurotransmitter section is quite interesting and explains a lot of things I see in my son. In addition to the homozygous MOA-A mutation, he has:

DAOA rs701567 (+/+) - D-amino acid oxidase activator, which degrades D-serine, a potent activator of NMDA receptors. Associated with cognitive manic symptoms, Need Idebenone, Piracetam, Magnesium, Taurine, Lithium orotate. I see my old friends Piracetam and Taurine on this list.

GAD1 rs3749034 (+/+), GAD1 rs3828275 (+/+) - Catalyzes production of GABA from glutamate. High glutamate, low GABA. Need Taurine, Theanine, NAC, Glycine, Vitamin B3. Avoid MSG.

Basically, these mutations tell me that my son has high glutamate, which probably explains his hyperactivity, stimming, abnormal EEG. He also have high serotonin, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine which explain his anger issues. So, the stuff he needs:

- B2 R-5-P (promote MAO-A)
- Hydroxy B12 (degrade catecholamines)
- Ornithine (to reduce ammonia due to MTHFR mutation, already taking it)
- Taurine (help with GABA, already taking it, perhaps I will start giving it twice a day)
- NAC (need for his affected detox genes)

Progesterone can help with his MAO-A mutation. He also has two homozygous mutations leading to high estrogen. Nutrahacker recommends DIM (Diindolylmethane), which is an interesting hormone-balancing supplement. I am a bit scared messing with hormones at this time.


Fo2 just my two cents... I did the nutrahacker few months ago and the results scared the hell out of me... Started ordering supplements not much worked, saw little progress but nothing major etc
Then by coincidence I was speaking to one of the of the dads at school who is actually a professor/lecturer/researcher in top university here in London in biomed (of all things!!) and he said tests like 23andme etc only look at very small part of the genes, and to get the actual full picture you need to do the full DNA essay which costs thousands of dollars (that's one of the things he does) . He did say that genes/SNPs etc work as a team and compensate each other and so unless something is extremely obvious It's not great idea to rely on 23andme results etc as in most cases the results are not reliable...

Anyhow so many people out there have worst genes than us, why are we the autistic one? Hence I personally stopped going for the nutrahacker recommendations and just trying to remove the brain inflammation and the bacteria issues instead
By all means though go for it and i hope it works for u :-)

FatherOf2
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby FatherOf2 » Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:29 pm

Nikkie111 wrote:Fo2 just my two cents... I did the nutrahacker few months ago and the results scared the hell out of me... Started ordering supplements not much worked, saw little progress but nothing major etc
Then by coincidence I was speaking to one of the of the dads at school who is actually a professor/lecturer/researcher in top university here in London in biomed (of all things!!) and he said tests like 23andme etc only look at very small part of the genes, and to get the actual full picture you need to do the full DNA essay which costs thousands of dollars (that's one of the things he does) . He did say that genes/SNPs etc work as a team and compensate each other and so unless something is extremely obvious It's not great idea to rely on 23andme results etc as in most cases the results are not reliable...

Anyhow so many people out there have worst genes than us, why are we the autistic one? Hence I personally stopped going for the nutrahacker recommendations and just trying to remove the brain inflammation and the bacteria issues instead
By all means though go for it and i hope it works for u :-)

Thank you, Nikkie. I am not convinced either that genetics give a full answer to autism. For example, I have fraternal twin sons, only one is autistic with lack of eye contact, tantrums, stimming, severely delayed language, low cognition, obsessions, anger, SIBs. The other one just has anxiety and obsessions, but, at 7, he speaks like an adult, very smart, has upbeat mood (never tantrums), very social (would seek kids on the playground to play with), goes to a gen ed class. So, the anxiety and obsessions are most likely have genetic cause (I have them too), but lack of eye contact, anger, tantrums, SIB, stimmings, severly delayed language and cognition could be a result of something else (a brain injury?). I have ordered a 23&me test kit to test his fraternal twin brother to see what differs between their mutations. Genetic tests have errors and plus SNP mutations or whole exome sequencing don't tell us copy number variations (CNV's), which can be very significant in mental disorders. I am doing this research right now because I ran out of ideas of how to treat stimming.

FatherOf2
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby FatherOf2 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:54 am

I found this article about balancing glutamate and GABA very informative: http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how-to-increase-gaba-and-balance-glutamate/
Here is the summary of this article:

- High glutamate causes hyperactivity, OCD, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorders, and STIMS (repetitive self-stimulatory behaviors like rocking, pacing, body spinning, hand-flapping, lining up or spinning toys, echolalia, repeating rote phrases or other repetitive body movements or movement of objects that are commonly seen in autistic children)... Too much glutamate can also increase eosinophils (my son has high levels of eosinophils)... Toxins created by Candida, mold toxins, bacterial toxins, Lyme, and organic solvents can increase glutamate production

- GABA calms the brain and relaxes you by producing alpha waves (my son has almost no alpha rhythm, which could be an indicator of low GABA). The brain uses it to support sensory integration. It is also vital in speech and language. Without adequate GABA production, we would have slurred or no speech and trouble comprehending language. Low GABA results in nervousness, anxiety and panic disorders, aggressive behavior, decreased eye-contact and anti-social behavior, attention deficit, problems with eye-focusing (like that seen in autistic children when both eyes are focused inward towards the nose or waver back and forth in a horizontal or vertical movement).

- GABA is produced from glutamate by an enzyme called glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD). Anytime glutamate levels start to build up too high, more of it is converted to GABA to calm things down. However, problems with the GAD enzyme (like my son's homozygous mutation in the GAD1 gene) may results in too much glutamate. "For example, the rubella virus, which is found in the MMR vaccination can decrease activity of GAD by as much as 50%. Thus, one of the reasons children begin to exhibit some of the symptoms of autism immediately after vaccination." Problems with pancreas may impair production of the GAD enzyme. People with type 1 diabetes produce antibodies against the GAD enzyme. Lead also interferes with GAD activity.

- B6 is a cofactor with GAD to convert glutamate into GABA (supplementing B6 in my son always led to increased irritability).

- Taurine increases the GAD enzyme and consequently GABA levels. Additionally taurine can bind directly to GABA receptors. However, CBS and SUOX gene mutations can result in in excess levels of sulfur in the body from taurine supplementation. These mutations can also impair ammonia detoxification as well. B6 and SAMe increases the activity of these gene mutations, so supplementation with these substances may compound the problem too (this may explain why B6 was bad for my son, but I don't see any homozygous CBS or SUOX mutations in my son, and he is totally OK taking taurine).

- Supplementing directly with GABA is effective for some people. However, some people can get a stimulating effect because GABA itself can be converted back into glutamine, which is then converted back into glutamate through a metabolic pathway called the GABA shunt. So GABA supplementation can end up increasing glutamate in these people.

- Another popular choice for increasing GABA is l-theanine. L-theanine is a glutamate analog. If you fall in the category of people who is having problems converting your glutamate to GABA, this could lead to excess glutamate rather than GABA (my son had huge mood swings from l-theanine).

- GABA opposes norepinephrine, another excitatory neurotransmitter, which sets off the stress response system. Like glutamate, excess norepinephrine is toxic to the brain and can produce the same kinds of symptoms, making it hard to tell the difference between the two. Fortunately, increasing GABA can help reduce excess norepinephrine in addition to excess glutamate.

Nikkie111
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:59 am

FatherOf2 wrote:
Nikkie111 wrote:Fo2 just my two cents... I did the nutrahacker few months ago and the results scared the hell out of me... Started ordering supplements not much worked, saw little progress but nothing major etc
Then by coincidence I was speaking to one of the of the dads at school who is actually a professor/lecturer/researcher in top university here in London in biomed (of all things!!) and he said tests like 23andme etc only look at very small part of the genes, and to get the actual full picture you need to do the full DNA essay which costs thousands of dollars (that's one of the things he does) . He did say that genes/SNPs etc work as a team and compensate each other and so unless something is extremely obvious It's not great idea to rely on 23andme results etc as in most cases the results are not reliable...

Anyhow so many people out there have worst genes than us, why are we the autistic one? Hence I personally stopped going for the nutrahacker recommendations and just trying to remove the brain inflammation and the bacteria issues instead
By all means though go for it and i hope it works for u :-)

Thank you, Nikkie. I am not convinced either that genetics give a full answer to autism. For example, I have fraternal twin sons, only one is autistic with lack of eye contact, tantrums, stimming, severely delayed language, low cognition, obsessions, anger, SIBs. The other one just has anxiety and obsessions, but, at 7, he speaks like an adult, very smart, has upbeat mood (never tantrums), very social (would seek kids on the playground to play with), goes to a gen ed class. So, the anxiety and obsessions are most likely have genetic cause (I have them too), but lack of eye contact, anger, tantrums, SIB, stimmings, severly delayed language and cognition could be a result of something else (a brain injury?). I have ordered a 23&me test kit to test his fraternal twin brother to see what differs between their mutations. Genetic tests have errors and plus SNP mutations or whole exome sequencing don't tell us copy number variations (CNV's), which can be very significant in mental disorders. I am doing this research right now because I ran out of ideas of how to treat stimming.


Spot on!! Good idea about testing the other twin!! You see we never test the NT ones, their profile might be even worse than the ASD ones!!

With regards to stimming are you 1000% sure he doesn't have underlying infection or virus? Have you checked his CD 57?

FatherOf2
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby FatherOf2 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:21 pm

We live in San Diego, and none of 3 MAPS doctors we've seen here ever suggested a blod test CD57. I asked our pediatrician a possibility of Lyme, but he laughed at me saying that in Southern California chances of that are zero. I will add CD57 to my list of blood tests to 'do at once'. Is there any non-blood test that can suggest a possibility of Lyme?

I have been searching for drugs and supplements that would activate the GAD enzyme and increase GABA. I came across this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18066140 It says:

"... The purpose of this study was to determine whether commercially available botanicals directly affect the primary brain enzymes responsible for gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) metabolism. Anxiolytic plants may interact with either glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD) or GABA transaminase (GABA-T) and ultimately influence brain GABA levels and neurotransmission... The aqueous extract of Melissa officinalis (lemon balm) exhibited the greatest inhibition of GABA-T activity (IC50 = 0.35 mg/mL). Extracts from Centella asiatica (gotu kola) and Valeriana officinalis (valerian) stimulated GAD activity by over 40% at a dose of 1 mg/mL. On the other hand, both Matricaria recutita (German chamomile) and Humulus lupulus (hops) showed significant inhibition of GAD activity (0.11-0.65 mg/mL)..."

Valerian has always reduced my heart rate and made me feel half dead. Gotu Kola is known to be toxic on liver if used for more than 6 weeks. So, it may not be a good idea. For now, the easiest way to boost my son's GABA is to just double his Taurine intake from 500mg 1x/day to 500mg 2x/day. I think that the reason why his stimming has increased from Lamictal is because Lamictal reduces glutamate release (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10963757), perhaps leaving less of it to be converted to GABA. Namenda blocks NMDA receptors leaving more glutamate available and convertible to GABA, thus reducing stimms, which happened during our trial of Namenda in 2014 - just a theory. My goal is to increase his GABA without increasing glutamate.

Nikkie111
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:59 pm

Cd57 can be low from a virus as well or another systemic infection doesn't need to be Lyme necessarily
Yes I agree not everyone focuses on this, my one doc us focusing on gut constantly(classic DAN and bloody annoying!), my other doc focuses on blood tests for infections like these and she recommended the CD57. My boy's was quite low and this marker says a lot mainly around suppressed immune (if marker is low means the immune is not working properly cause of a virus or something else )... It's worth testing :-)

CdB
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby CdB » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:15 pm

Nikkie111 wrote:Aspie great stuff about Japanese knotweed, yes I see it already it's odd it's like something is unblocked on him. I'd love to try it as well but don't want to waste this gems on me :lol: also thanks for he molybdenum/biotin tip that's exactly what my doc said as well!! I give daily just molybdenum and biotin on and off but I ll add this in more consistently!


Buhner's protocol has been life changing for us. It took my Aspie daughter with PANDAS,who was regressing to near 100% within a year, the transformation has been amazing.

After years of trying I stumbled across two sites, healing well and Latitude where there was a poster called rowingmom who's daughters symptoms resembled mine in so many ways and she always talked how Buhner protocol had recovered her daughter so I went and researched, read other people post about how helpful has it been. Buhner had a site so i took a peek at it and there was a protocol for a strep for which my daughter had high titers for http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/pers ... infection/ I went and bought the Cryptolepis and Echinacea Angustifolia and tried it low and slow, her involuntary movements/tick got worst after a first week but after a month and a half they were gone and never came back which was a huge success.

We took a break from it but after few months and few other test she came positive for Mycoplasma Pneumonia and thru Igenex she came positive for lyme, negative thru lab quest western blot. We went to full Buhner's protocols for Lyme and Mycoplasma starting first with Chinese Skullcap (Scutellaria Baicalnesis) and it was amazing, here was an antisocial kid who hadn't had play dates in years asking for one after a week on it, she became calmer and more social. Every week we kept on introducing another herb and we kept on seeing improvements, forward a year after and she's near or at 100% The last herb we introduced and which has brought her from 90 to lets say 98% has been Uncaria Rhynchophylla, can't believe I waited a year, somehow it felt thru the cracks as I was using Unicaria Tomentosa and always thought of it as the same, it was not.

Nikkie111
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:40 pm

CdB wrote:
Nikkie111 wrote:Aspie great stuff about Japanese knotweed, yes I see it already it's odd it's like something is unblocked on him. I'd love to try it as well but don't want to waste this gems on me :lol: also thanks for he molybdenum/biotin tip that's exactly what my doc said as well!! I give daily just molybdenum and biotin on and off but I ll add this in more consistently!


Buhner's protocol has been life changing for us. It took my Aspie daughter with PANDAS,who was regressing to near 100% within a year, the transformation has been amazing.

After years of trying I stumbled across two sites, healing well and Latitude where there was a poster called rowingmom who's daughters symptoms resembled mine in so many ways and she always talked how Buhner protocol had recovered her daughter so I went and researched, read other people post about how helpful has it been. Buhner had a site so i took a peek at it and there was a protocol for a strep for which my daughter had high titers for http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/herbs/pers ... infection/ I went and bought the Cryptolepis and Echinacea Angustifolia and tried it low and slow, her involuntary movements/tick got worst after a first week but after a month and a half they were gone and never came back which was a huge success.

We took a break from it but after few months and few other test she came positive for Mycoplasma Pneumonia and thru Igenex she came positive for lyme, negative thru lab quest western blot. We went to full Buhner's protocols for Lyme and Mycoplasma starting first with Chinese Skullcap (Scutellaria Baicalnesis) and it was amazing, here was an antisocial kid who hadn't had play dates in years asking for one after a week on it, she became calmer and more social. Every week we kept on introducing another herb and we kept on seeing improvements, forward a year after and she's near or at 100% The last herb we introduced and which has brought her from 90 to lets say 98% has been Uncaria Rhynchophylla, can't believe I waited a year, somehow it felt thru the cracks as I was using Unicaria Tomentosa and always thought of it as the same, it was not.


I know mate, I read rowingmum 's posts already, shocking isn't it?
Yes I was about to start with Chinese skullcap, but wanted to wait first. We started on cryptolepis, echinacea, astragalus, rhodial, Eleuthera and Japanese knotweed only about 10 days ago and it's jaw dropping how he comes up with stuff and just started playing with toys etc.... I bought Buhner 's 'herbal antibiotics" book and took ideas from there... May I ask did you get his Lyme book or did you have a consultation with a herbalist? How come you tried the uncaria at the end? Did you give any antibiotics or other meds whilst on Buhner protocol?
Really happy for your little one!!

CdB
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby CdB » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:20 pm

Nikkie111 wrote:
I know mate, I read rowingmum 's posts already, shocking isn't it?
Yes I was about to start with Chinese skullcap, but wanted to wait first. We started on cryptolepis, echinacea, astragalus, rhodial, Eleuthera and Japanese knotweed only about 10 days ago and it's jaw dropping how he comes up with stuff and just started playing with toys etc.... I bought Buhner 's 'herbal antibiotics" book and took ideas from there... May I ask did you get his Lyme book or did you have a consultation with a herbalist? How come you tried the uncaria at the end? Did you give any antibiotics or other meds whilst on Buhner protocol?
Really happy for your little one!!


Rowingmom is a Saint, she will answer anyone's questions and it's because of her sharing her story that my kid got better.

I think the mix of herbs that you're using is a solid one with an addition of Baical Skullcap, Salvia Miltiorrhiza, Red Root (very important as it drains the lymph nodes, Cat's Claw and Holly Basil you'll have a solid foundation that is anti microbial, anti viral, immuno modulating, anti inflammatory but take it slow and easy to introduce them. Do not forget to support the organs like liver and kidneys as they will process a lot of toxins as herbs are killing and stimulating the immune system.

I think you're starting things to fast, be patient, this is not a sprint but a marathon. Herbs are introduced slowly, one every week or two so that you can monitor and see changes, not everybody can handle all herbs and you can react to some and if you introduced them too fast you won't know which is helpful and which doesn't agree with the kiddo and will have to stop all of them.

I have never used herbalist but have bought all of the Buhner's books and have re-read then over and over. I knew what was going on thru the tests that our regular plus specialists have discovered.

There's three Unicarias that are used traditionally as herbal medicine, one is Uncaria Tomentosa which is also known as Cat's Claw and it comes from Peru where it has been used for many ailments for 1000's of years. Second and third are traditional Chinese medicine one, Uncaria Rhynchophylla and Uncaria Sinensis which are very similar and are called Chinese Cat's claw, therefore my confusion and neglecting the Chinese one thinking it has similar properties like the Peruvian Cat Claw that we were using since the begining but it doesn't, they even look similar but act completely differently. Uncaria Rhynchophylla has really been wow for me, used it less than few weeks but wow.

No antibiotics for me, we avoid those as plaque.

Nikkie111
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:03 pm

CdB wrote:
Nikkie111 wrote:
I know mate, I read rowingmum 's posts already, shocking isn't it?
Yes I was about to start with Chinese skullcap, but wanted to wait first. We started on cryptolepis, echinacea, astragalus, rhodial, Eleuthera and Japanese knotweed only about 10 days ago and it's jaw dropping how he comes up with stuff and just started playing with toys etc.... I bought Buhner 's 'herbal antibiotics" book and took ideas from there... May I ask did you get his Lyme book or did you have a consultation with a herbalist? How come you tried the uncaria at the end? Did you give any antibiotics or other meds whilst on Buhner protocol?
Really happy for your little one!!


Rowingmom is a Saint, she will answer anyone's questions and it's because of her sharing her story that my kid got better.

I think the mix of herbs that you're using is a solid one with an addition of Baical Skullcap, Salvia Miltiorrhiza, Red Root (very important as it drains the lymph nodes, Cat's Claw and Holly Basil you'll have a solid foundation that is anti microbial, anti viral, immuno modulating, anti inflammatory but take it slow and easy to introduce them. Do not forget to support the organs like liver and kidneys as they will process a lot of toxins as herbs are killing and stimulating the immune system.

I think you're starting things to fast, be patient, this is not a sprint but a marathon. Herbs are introduced slowly, one every week or two so that you can monitor and see changes, not everybody can handle all herbs and you can react to some and if you introduced them too fast you won't know which is helpful and which doesn't agree with the kiddo and will have to stop all of them.

I have never used herbalist but have bought all of the Buhner's books and have re-read then over and over. I knew what was going on thru the tests that our regular plus specialists have discovered.

There's three Unicarias that are used traditionally as herbal medicine, one is Uncaria Tomentosa which is also known as Cat's Claw and it comes from Peru where it has been used for many ailments for 1000's of years. Second and third are traditional Chinese medicine one, Uncaria Rhynchophylla and Uncaria Sinensis which are very similar and are called Chinese Cat's claw, therefore my confusion and neglecting the Chinese one thinking it has similar properties like the Peruvian Cat Claw that we were using since the begining but it doesn't, they even look similar but act completely differently. Uncaria Rhynchophylla has really been wow for me, used it less than few weeks but wow.

No antibiotics for me, we avoid those as plaque.

You're such a star CdB!!! Yes I might slow down, I got really excited with the changes so went for it!! Only problem is I've started valtrex recently and I dont want to mix valtrex with herbs but I might stop it in couple of weeks especially if I don't see rash etc

One last one did you use tincture for everything or powder? Did you use Cordyceps? And what did you do to help the liver? I assume you were giving most things three times a day on empty stomach?

CdB
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby CdB » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:02 pm

Nikkie111 wrote:You're such a star CdB!!! Yes I might slow down, I got really excited with the changes so went for it!! Only problem is I've started valtrex recently and I dont want to mix valtrex with herbs but I might stop it in couple of weeks especially if I don't see rash etc

One last one did you use tincture for everything or powder? Did you use Cordyceps? And what did you do to help the liver? I assume you were giving most things three times a day on empty stomach?


Yes, I mostly used tincture. After few months on protocol I started making my own tinctures as I could make them more concentrated thus we needed to use less and they're more effective. I give them now 2 times a day 15 minutes before meals.

Yes, Cordyceps is very effective and good for you on so many levels, we mix it in a Kefir and berry smootie which my kids get everyday, do not buy that in tincture, buy powder from Aloha medicinal, call them and ask them for a kilo package, it's 1000 grams for $125 best price available for the highest quality lab grown made in USA, do not get the Chinese ones they are too contaminated. Another thing to get from them or from http://www.mushroomharvest.com/catalog/index.php is Lion's Mane, it has studies behind it for nerve regeneration, remyelination, and increased Nerve Growth Factor, used as powder. Third mushrooms that is very important is Reishi and that one needs to get as a tincture, contains beta glucans which are immuno modulatory and detoxifies liver.

Milk thistle is the best for liver health and is very safe.

FatherOf2
Posts: 1623
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby FatherOf2 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:13 pm

Interesting exchange about herbs and Lyme. Japanese Knotwood is a good source of Resveratrol, which reduces glutamate toxicity in the brain (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3133838/). I think Aspie found Reservatrol quite effective for his condition in the past. I am going to check other mentioned herbs.

Nikkie111
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:26 am

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:31 am

FatherOf2 wrote:Interesting exchange about herbs and Lyme. Japanese Knotwood is a good source of Resveratrol, which reduces glutamate toxicity in the brain (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3133838/). I think Aspie found Reservatrol quite effective for his condition in the past. I am going to check other mentioned herbs.

Yes if you have a look at one if he key herbs that CdB mentioned uncaria Rhynchophylla you'll see that it serves as antiepileptic and glutamate inhibititor

CdB you are Godsent my dear!!! Big thank you! If I have more questions I might open up a new topic just for Buhner questions if you could add your experience as I kow others will benefit as well!

CdB
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby CdB » Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:13 am

PubMed is loaded with studies about Uncaria rhynchophylla/sinesis, here are just a few.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26140220

We identified a neuroprotective single fraction among 62 ones of hexane extract from Uncaria sinensis (JGH43IA) and investigated its effects and mechanisms in primary cortical neurons. Pretreatment with JGH43IA showed a significantly increase cell viability in a dose-dependent manner with a decrease in the lactate dehydrogenase release. When we performed morphological assay and flow cytometry to determination of the type of cell death, pretreatment with JGH43IA showed a significant reduction of glutamate-induced apoptotic cell death. Then we explored the downstream signaling pathways of N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor (NMDAR) with calpain activation to elucidate possible pathways of neuroprotection by JGH43IA. Pretreatment with JGH43IA exhibited a significant attenuation of NMDAR GluN2B subunit activation and a decrease in active form of calpain 1 leading to subsequent cleavage of striatal-enriched protein tyrosine phosphatase (STEP). In addition, pretreatment with JGH43IA showed a marked increase of cAMP responsive element binding protein. These results suggest that JGH43IA may have neuroprotective effects through down-regulation of NMDAR GluN2B subunit and calpain 1 activation, and subsequent alleviation of STEP cleavage. This single fraction from U. sinensis might be a useful therapeutic agent for brain disorder associated with glutamate injury.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23117160

Chronic microglial activation endangers neuronal survival through the release of various pro-inflammatory and neurotoxic factors. As such, negative regulators of microglial activation have been considered as potential therapeutic candidates to reduce the risk of neurodegeneration associated with inflammation. Uncaria rhynchophylla (U. rhynchophylla) is a traditional oriental herb that has been used for treatment of disorders of the cardiovascular and central nervous systems. Hirsutine (HS), one of the major indole alkaloids of U. rhynchophylla, has demonstrated neuroprotective potential. The aim of the present study was to examine the efficacy of HS in the repression of inflammation-induced neurotoxicity and microglial cell activation. In organotypic hippocampal slice cultures, HS blocked lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-related hippocampal cell death and production of nitric oxide (NO), prostaglandin (PG) E2 and interleukin-1β. HS was demonstrated to effectively inhibit LPS-induced NO release from cultured rat brain microglia. The compound reduced the LPS-stimulated production of PGE2 and intracellular reactive oxygen species. HS significantly decreased LPS-induced phosphorylation of the mitogen-activated protein kinases and Akt signaling proteins. In conclusion, HS reduces the production of various neurotoxic factors in activated microglial cells and possesses neuroprotective activity in a model of inflammation-induced neurotoxicity.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24190599

Geissoschizine methyl ether, an alkaloid from the Uncaria hook, improves remyelination after cuprizone-induced demyelination in medial prefrontal cortex of adult mice.

Accumulating evidence indicates that the medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) is a site of myelin and oligodendrocyte abnormalities that contribute to psychotic symptoms of schizophrenia. The development of therapeutic approaches to enhance remyelination, a regenerative process in which new myelin sheaths are formed on demyelinated axons, may be an attractive remedial strategy. Geissoschizine methyl ether (GM) in the Uncaria hook, a galenical constituent of the traditional Japanese medicine yokukansan (Yi-gan san), is one of the active components responsible for the psychotropic effects of yokukansan, though little is known about the mechanisms underlying the effects of either that medicine or GM itself. In the present study, we employed a cuprizone (CPZ)-induced demyelination model and examined the cellular changes in response to GM administration during the remyelination phase in the mPFC of adult mice. Using the mitotic marker 5-bromo-2'-deoxyuridine (BrdU), we demonstrated that CPZ treatment significantly increased the number of BrdU-positive NG2 cells, as well as microglia and mature oligodendrocytes in the mPFC. Newly formed oligodendrocytes were increased by GM administration after CPZ exposure. In addition, GM attenuated a decrease in myelin basic protein immunoreactivity caused by CPZ administration. Taken together, our findings suggest that GM administration ameliorated the myelin deficit by mature oligodendrocyte formation and remyelination in the mPFC of CPZ-fed mice. The present findings provide experimental evidence supporting the role for GM and its possible use as a remedy for schizophrenia symptoms by promoting the differentiation of progenitor cells to and myelination by oligodendrocytes.

Last edited by CdB on Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.

CdB
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Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby CdB » Wed Dec 28, 2016 7:25 am

Nikkie111 wrote:CdB If I have more questions I might open up a new topic just for Buhner questions if you could add your experience as I kow others will benefit as well!


Glad to help, ask as many questions as you need and want.

FatherOf2
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Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby FatherOf2 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:11 am

I started looking at these herbs (Uncaria rhynchophylla/sinesis, Cats Claw, Chinese Skullcap, Japanese Knotweed) and discovered that they all have anti-inflammatory action. They reduce IL-1 cytokines and some IL-6. Interestingly, I came across the same herbs while looking for anything that can reduce IL-1 and IL-6 in my son, who has two mutations increasing these pro-inflammatory cytokines. If you want more suggestions along this therapeutic target, you may try Luteolin, Curcumin, Ginger, Milk Thistle, green tea (EGCG), Astaxanthin. I tried Luteolin (LutiMax) and definetely saw improvements. Milk Thistle never did anything for my son.

IL-1 and IL-6 can be elevated due to mutations or Lyme disease, or Herpes virus, or other infection. Nikkie, I am curious, since you have 23&me results for your son, could you look up these markers in the raw data and tell me what is his genotype:

rs16944
rs1800795
rs2710102

Also, a question to both of you and CdB: what was the most potent herb in improving the autism symptoms?

Nikkie111
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Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:15 am

FatherOf2 wrote:I started looking at these herbs (Uncaria rhynchophylla/sinesis, Cats Claw, Chinese Skullcap, Japanese Knotweed) and discovered that they all have anti-inflammatory action. They reduce IL-1 cytokines and some IL-6. Interestingly, I came across the same herbs while looking for anything that can reduce IL-1 and IL-6 in my son, who has two mutations increasing these pro-inflammatory cytokines. If you want more suggestions along this therapeutic target, you may try Luteolin, Curcumin, Ginger, Milk Thistle, green tea (EGCG), Astaxanthin. I tried Luteolin (LutiMax) and definetely saw improvements. Milk Thistle never did anything for my son.

IL-1 and IL-6 can be elevated due to mutations or Lyme disease, or Herpes virus, or other infection. Nikkie, I am curious, since you have 23&me results for your son, could you look up these markers in the raw data and tell me what is his genotype:

rs16944
rs1800795
rs2710102

Also, a question to both of you and CdB: what was the most potent herb in improving the autism symptoms?


The first two are GG and the last one is AA.... What does this mean?


I've only started Buhner just few days ago and I didn't take it very slowly, I gave quite a few but his improvement will either be the Japanese knotweed or the cryptolepis/echinacea combo for his strep
I did order some more yesterday though so will definitely update you in few days :wink:

Edit: sorry forgot to say that I think from reading Buhner not one herb will sort out the issue. Herbs work synergetically, so fire example licorice helps certain drugs or herbs more than taking them on their own. So he mentions herbs for bacteria but he also mentions herbs for immunity and cytokines so that bacteria don't come back again. If you have some time it's worth reading him.
I've only came across him as the last stool test had some bacteria and doc insists on antibiotics so trying this first!

CdB
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Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby CdB » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:16 am

FatherOf2 wrote:I started looking at these herbs (Uncaria rhynchophylla/sinesis, Cats Claw, Chinese Skullcap, Japanese Knotweed) and discovered that they all have anti-inflammatory action. They reduce IL-1 cytokines and some IL-6. Interestingly, I came across the same herbs while looking for anything that can reduce IL-1 and IL-6 in my son, who has two mutations increasing these pro-inflammatory cytokines. If you want more suggestions along this therapeutic target, you may try Luteolin, Curcumin, Ginger, Milk Thistle, green tea (EGCG), Astaxanthin. I tried Luteolin (LutiMax) and definetely saw improvements. Milk Thistle never did anything for my son.

Also, a question to both of you and CdB: what was the most potent herb in improving the autism symptoms?


As Nikkie said there's no one magic herb fix it all but rather they work together. You should get his books, they are cheap and all very well backed up with scientific studies as to which herbs work for which cytokine or what does it do in the body. We were on 10 to 15 different herbs at the time along with medicinal mushrooms and supplements.

This is a good introduction into Buhner, he might be little poetic at the moments but knows his herbs and how they work in the body.

http://www.betterhealthguy.com/images/s ... 0NOTES.pdf

Also, what I liked about him was that he doesn't sell products so no conflict of interest there. Only thing what he sells is his book if you want to go in dept but there's also a site where you can get his protocol for free but for $15 I highly recommend his book.

FatherOf2
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Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby FatherOf2 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:52 am

Nikkie111 wrote:
FatherOf2 wrote:rs16944
rs1800795
rs2710102


The first two are GG and the last one is AA.... What does this mean?

My son has exactly the same homosygous mutations of these genes. rs16944 (gene IL1B) controls production of IL-1 beta, probably the worst of all pro-inflammatory cytokines. The GG mutation causes elevated IL-1 beta. rs1800795 (gene LOC541472) controls IL-6 production. The GG mutation elevates IL-6. Combined, these two mutations are seen in about 10% population. rs2710102 mutation AA is a nasty one, affects CNTNAP2 gene, which made news headlines in 2008, when researchers found that it is associated with delayed or regressive speech and autism. This CNTNAP2 controls the production of Neuroxins, proteins that form synapses (connections) in the brain. The AA mutation happens in 24% of population. So, alone, it doesn't explain autism (current rate is about 1-2%). While we know how to fight the elevated IL-1 beta and IL-6 (anything anti-inflammatory should help), fighting the 'autism mutation' of CNTNAP2 is almost impossible or not known at this time. The only study that attempted to reduce the effect of this mutation in zebra fish used estrogen. The author of the polypill for autism thinks that diuretic Bumetanide will be very helpful to those with CNTNAP2 mutation. Luteolin, whih I mentioned earlier as a potent anti-inflammatory flavanoid, is also a potent estrogen agonist. So, you get combined effect from it. Evening Primrose, another supplement that helped my son, also has anti-inflammatory and pro-estrogen properties.

Here are other mutations that are strongly related to autism:

rs2538976 (AA) - another mutation in CNTNAP2 that causes nonsense word repetition
rs2270641 (GG) - mutation in gene SLC18A1 that causes elevated monoamine neurotransmitters (serotonin, dopamine etc)
rs6323 (T or TT) - mutation in MAO-A gene that also leads to elevated monoamine neurotransmitters

Nikkie111
Posts: 338
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Re: How to reduce stimming

Postby Nikkie111 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:17 pm

FatherOf2 wrote:
Nikkie111 wrote:
FatherOf2 wrote:rs16944
rs1800795
rs2710102


The first two are GG and the last one is AA.... What does this mean?

My son has exactly the same homosygous mutations of these genes. rs16944 (gene IL1B) controls production of IL-1 beta, probably the worst of all pro-inflammatory cytokines. The GG mutation causes elevated IL-1 beta. rs1800795 (gene LOC541472) controls IL-6 production. The GG mutation elevates IL-6. Combined, these two mutations are seen in about 10% population. rs2710102 mutation AA is a nasty one, affects CNTNAP2 gene, which made news headlines in 2008, when researchers found that it is associated with delayed or regressive speech and autism. This CNTNAP2 controls the production of Neuroxins, proteins that form synapses (connections) in the brain. The AA mutation happens in 24% of population. So, alone, it doesn't explain autism (current rate is about 1-2%). While we know how to fight the elevated IL-1 beta and IL-6 (anything anti-inflammatory should help), fighting the 'autism mutation' of CNTNAP2 is almost impossible or not known at this time. The only study that attempted to reduce the effect of this mutation in zebra fish used estrogen. The author of the polypill for autism thinks that diuretic Bumetanide will be very helpful to those with CNTNAP2 mutation. Luteolin, whih I mentioned earlier as a potent anti-inflammatory flavanoid, is also a potent estrogen agonist. So, you get combined effect from it. Evening Primrose, another supplement that helped my son, also has anti-inflammatory and pro-estrogen properties.

Here are other mutations that are strongly related to autism:

rs2538976 (AA) - another mutation in CNTNAP2 that causes nonsense word repetition
rs2270641 (GG) - mutation in gene SLC18A1 that causes elevated monoamine neurotransmitters (serotonin, dopamine etc)
rs6323 (T or TT) - mutation in MAO-A gene that also leads to elevated monoamine neurotransmitters


This info is very useful!!!! Thank you!
Ok the rs2710102 is a funny one, apparently the GG is the autism allele, the AA is selective mutism or anxiety so different and it's odd cause it doesn't apply to us
Have a look here, there are many SNPs associated with autism but these are the key ones
https://www.23andme.com/you/community/thread/14291/
Admittedly the Rs1858830 is really a dodgy one! But strong antioxidants, antiinflamatory, and antibacterials/diet should sort the issue
Fwiw it can get depressing reading this but I think as long as our issue is not a brain structural thing, it ll be ok :wink:


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