Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Discuss autism diets and biomedical treatments of autism.

Moderator: ModeratorBill

Tiptopss
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:54 pm

Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby Tiptopss » Sat Mar 25, 2017 3:43 pm


starmum
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:26 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby starmum » Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:29 pm

I read some parents telk anazing gains with it. I think i will try it ,though my son gut is very senstive

EmilyV
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:41 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby EmilyV » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:11 pm

thank you for this link!
I think noone has described the key concepts of current understanding of the most likely cause of autism better than this guy Nemechek on this page. I think he got it, and the treatment seems very promising, although I will research it well before starting obviously, we are also doing some tests. After my son recieved his ASD diagnosis 3 months ago I have been reading tons of science articles on autism (I have access to them as an MD) and I am also convinced it is propionic acid from bacterial overgrowth is most cases.
In the very least I'd love to start fish oil until i read up more on inulin.

onetime
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:30 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby onetime » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:24 pm

I think Nemechek is on the right path, trying to eliminate bad bacteria, their toxins and inflammation, however it is disingenuous for Nemechek to imply that Inulin only feeds good bacteria. Recent studies that have shown that Inulin/FOS encourages the growth of Klebsiella, a bacterium implicated in Ankylosing Spondylitis and increased intestinal permeability, along with the release of LPS - which is an endotoxin. For any of our kiddos with Klebsiella, blindly taking Inulin could exasperate the problem.

starmum
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:26 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby starmum » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:49 pm

onetime wrote:I think Nemechek is on the right path, trying to eliminate bad bacteria, their toxins and inflammation, however it is disingenuous for Nemechek to imply that Inulin only feeds good bacteria. Recent studies that have shown that Inulin/FOS encourages the growth of Klebsiella, a bacterium implicated in Ankylosing Spondylitis and increased intestinal permeability, along with the release of LPS - which is an endotoxin. For any of our kiddos with Klebsiella, blindly taking Inulin could exasperate the problem.

In great plains csa from 2 years my ds showed klebsiella as inbalanced flora
I bought inulin and want to start Dr N protocol for my son i am worried after i read your comment. I know that inulin can feed yeast or bad bacteria

majadj
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:09 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby majadj » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:05 am

These studies are reason why I believe in Nemechek protocol
1- MacFabe
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747729/
2- Gastrointestinal flora and gastrointestinal status in children with autism
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3072352/
Onetime,
This could be the answer?
Patrick Nemechek, D.O.
Many species of bacteria produce propionic acid (propionate), and when fed inulin they can produce more. The major families of bacteria that are producing it in autism do not digest inulin efficiently.
The over riding effect of inulin is to promote the normal colonizing bacteria of the small intestine and they end up suppressing the high-propionic acid producing bacteria. Net effect is less propionic acid is produced.

Started yesterday with inulin + CLO + krill oil.
For amplification of anti inflammatory effect, I am still using PEApure+BrainGain (one caps.)
Added simethicone for possible side effects.

nautygarcon
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby nautygarcon » Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:10 pm

I've bought inulin as soon as I read the article... after doing some researches I've the same concern as onetime.
Inulin feeds good and bad bacteria and I hesitate to use it for the moment as my boy is a gut kid.

onetime
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:30 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby onetime » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:39 pm

Thanks for sharing majadj.

I am by no means an expert, but those 2 studies seem to contradict one another - with one study saying that introducing too many Short Chain Fatty Acids (SCFA) induce autistic behaviors (“Intraventricular administration of PPA and SCFAs in rats induces abnormal motor movements, repetitive interests, electrographic changes, cognitive deficits, perseveration, and impaired social interactions.”), and with the other saying that autistic kids to do not have enough SCFAs (“Children with autism had much lower levels of total short chain fatty acids (-27%, p = 0.00002), including lower levels of acetate, proprionate, and valerate”).

Regardless, I’ve certainly read enough studies and run enough tests on dd to firmly believe that we are dealing with gut issues in our specific case. I completely agree with Nemechek on this point.

However, the bacteria that we are dealing with in my dd (Klebsiella pneumoniae & oxytoca, Citrobacter freundii) are gram negative and produce Lipopolysaccharides (LPS) - which is a potent endotoxin. We are also dealing with Staphylococcus aureus which produces superanitigens (SAGs) and compounds the effect of the LPS. (“One of the more dangerous indirect effects of SAg infection concerns the ability of SAgs to augment the effects of endotoxins in the body. This is accomplished by reducing the threshold for endotoxicity. Schlievert demonstrated that, when administered conjunctively, the effects of SAg and endotoxin are magnified as much as 50,000 times.”) http://iai.asm.org/content/36/1/123.long

Some studies show that inulin feeds Klebsiella, E. coli and many Clostridium species.

The point is that randomly feeding your child inulin without knowing what bacteria you are dealing with is like playing Russian Roulette. It may help - it may make matters much worse. And it is disingenuous on Nemechek’s part to suggest otherwise.

Someone here on the forum linked to an article that seems to apply to our case much more so than the Nemechek protocol. http://www.microbialinfluence.com/

My advice is to find out what you are dealing first, and then treat appropriately. And be careful of any advice that suggests using a “catch all” treatment will help all autistic kids (such as the Nemechek protocol seems to do).

majadj
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:09 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby majadj » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:18 am

I understood your point.
Found this in the same study:
The low level of SCFA's is also partly due to lower sacchrolytic fermentation by beneficial bacteria, lower intake of soluble fiber, prolonged transit time due to constipation, and/or possibly increased absorption by the gut due to increased permeability. However, from this study we cannot determine among those possibilities.

I`ve chosen to believe that it is due to increased permeability, so the propionate goes to blood. :wink:
I hope they will find the way to measure it properly.
We don`t know what we are feeding with inulin.
But, I am not sure that we know what we are doing with probiotics, too.
All those probiotics with millions of everything that we have tried gave us - nothing.
I think it is time for us to try prebiotics.
Just thinking loudly…

Ani'sMom
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby Ani'sMom » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:19 am

Ordered and got the inulin from 'Now'. We have tried quite a bit of other things. So going to give this also a try. It doesn't have potential side effects. That is a major plus. Planning to start at 1/3 if a tsp. Will keep you guys posted on how it goes.

luis
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby luis » Mon May 08, 2017 9:39 am

:( I'm feeling stupid. I can't understand how this could make any sense:

"Patrick Nemechek, D.O.
Many species of bacteria produce propionic acid (propionate), and when fed inulin they can produce more. The major families of bacteria that are producing it in autism do not digest inulin efficiently.
The over riding effect of inulin is to promote the normal colonizing bacteria of the small intestine and they end up suppressing the high-propionic acid producing bacteria.Net effect is less propionic acid is produced."

Clostridium is one of the worst bacteria and it produces propionic acid, which is considered to be the responsible for its bad effects on the gut and brain.
How could feeding bacteria that produces MORE propionic acid be good ?

I'm not being sarcastic. I really can't get it. Please, could you explain it to me ?
Thanks.

majadj
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:09 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby majadj » Mon May 08, 2017 3:32 pm

I am chasing you you from one topic to another, Luis... :wink:

Inulin feeds good and bad bacterias. But, as its said, net effect is more good bacterias , which are suppressing the high-propionic acid producing bacteria. This is happening especially in small interstine, where bad bacterias are present (SIBO) in kids with ASD (Although I didn't find good study about SIBO and ASD...)

Agave Inulin Supplementation Affects the Fecal Microbiota
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/145/9/2025.full
Bifidogenic effect of a very-long-chain inulin
http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/17635/
Pediatric Applications of Inulin and Oligofructose
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2585S.long

luis
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby luis » Tue May 09, 2017 2:42 pm

majadj wrote:I am chasing you you from one topic to another, Luis... :wink:

Inulin feeds good and bad bacterias. But, as its said, net effect is more good bacterias , which are suppressing the high-propionic acid producing bacteria. This is happening especially in small interstine, where bad bacterias are present (SIBO) in kids with ASD (Although I didn't find good study about SIBO and ASD...)

Agave Inulin Supplementation Affects the Fecal Microbiota
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/145/9/2025.full
Bifidogenic effect of a very-long-chain inulin
http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/17635/
Pediatric Applications of Inulin and Oligofructose
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2585S.long


Yes, and I thank you, majadj !
Even though it's still difficult for me to understand how the net effect would be less propionic acid, I am still giving inulin to my son, hoping it will do the same effect as in Nemechek protocol.

luis
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby luis » Tue May 09, 2017 3:06 pm

Majadj and others,

Dr. Nemechek gently answered me a few hours ago. Here's the answer:

"The otherwise health bacteria that “normally” live within the small intestine feed on inulin in particular and Clostridia which normally inhabit the colon do not.

Growth of normal small intestinal bacteria suppress the growth of the clostridia leading to reduced production of propionic acid.


What do you think ?

starmum
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:26 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby starmum » Tue May 09, 2017 8:12 pm

onetime wrote:Thanks for sharing majadj.

I am by no means an expert, but those 2 studies seem to contradict one another - with one study saying that introducing too many Short Chain Fatty Acids (SCFA) induce autistic behaviors (“Intraventricular administration of PPA and SCFAs in rats induces abnormal motor movements, repetitive interests, electrographic changes, cognitive deficits, perseveration, and impaired social interactions.”), and with the other saying that autistic kids to do not have enough SCFAs (“Children with autism had much lower levels of total short chain fatty acids (-27%, p = 0.00002), including lower levels of acetate, proprionate, and valerate”).

Regardless, I’ve certainly read enough studies and run enough tests on dd to firmly believe that we are dealing with gut issues in our specific case. I completely agree with Nemechek on this point.

However, the bacteria that we are dealing with in my dd (Klebsiella pneumoniae & oxytoca, Citrobacter freundii) are gram negative and produce Lipopolysaccharides (LPS) - which is a potent endotoxin. We are also dealing with Staphylococcus aureus which produces superanitigens (SAGs) and compounds the effect of the LPS. (“One of the more dangerous indirect effects of SAg infection concerns the ability of SAgs to augment the effects of endotoxins in the body. This is accomplished by reducing the threshold for endotoxicity. Schlievert demonstrated that, when administered conjunctively, the effects of SAg and endotoxin are magnified as much as 50,000 times.”) http://iai.asm.org/content/36/1/123.long

Some studies show that inulin feeds Klebsiella, E. coli and many Clostridium species.

The point is that randomly feeding your child inulin without knowing what bacteria you are dealing with is like playing Russian Roulette. It may help - it may make matters much worse. And it is disingenuous on Nemechek’s part to suggest otherwise.

Someone here on the forum linked to an article that seems to apply to our case much more so than the Nemechek protocol. http://www.microbialinfluence.com/

My advice is to find out what you are dealing first, and then treat appropriately. And be careful of any advice that suggests using a “catch all” treatment will help all autistic kids (such as the Nemechek protocol seems to do).


My son comprehensive stool analysis from 2 years showed klebsiella as imbalanced flora .it was not a harmful bacteria . Just imbalanced.
he at that time has a huge gut inflammation cas of milk allergy.so i thought it is ok according to his v v high inflamation markers
I bought inulin if i give it to him can it feed the klebsiella and become a harmful one?TIA

raun cesar
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:17 am

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby raun cesar » Wed May 10, 2017 3:38 am

Nice share, Nemechek is making some duplicitous arguments on Inulin feeds good and bad bacteria. More studies are needed to fully support the argument.

Ani'sMom
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:41 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby Ani'sMom » Wed May 10, 2017 7:44 am

Hi guys, for whatever it is worth, I have tried inulin on my son for the past two weeks and the major thing I have noticed is that when I give the supplements after I give the inulin, he is able to tolerate it better.
I have started a bunch of stuff which I had given him a break from since it is summer vacation here and wanted to try everything I wanted to during the break. To my surprise, some of the things like Super Nu Thera and CLO were giving trouble - loose stools mainly. After about 3 to 4 days on Inulin, he was able to tolerate it with no issues. I am currently giving him 2000 mg, Carlson CLO. He was unable to handle even a 1000mg without the inulin. When I noticed that it was working was, when I stopped the inulin thinking that it was not making any difference. Just my 2 cents worth.

luis
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby luis » Wed May 10, 2017 12:33 pm

Folks, another question, please.
I've read at Dr. Nemechek's blog that in older kids sometimes he uses a 10 day course of Rifaximin. And that after that, "if necessary" he starts using inulin.
What do you think of that ? Wouldn't Rifaximin kill all good bacteriae, too ?

majadj
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:09 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby majadj » Thu May 11, 2017 3:48 pm

luis wrote:"The otherwise health bacteria that “normally” live within the small intestine feed on inulin in particular and Clostridia which normally inhabit the colon do not.
Growth of normal small intestinal bacteria suppress the growth of the clostridia leading to reduced production of propionic acid.

What do you think ?


SIBO, Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth, occurs when colonic bacteria migrate too high into the wrong section of the intestines.
In SIBO in ASD, clostridium which normally grow in colon migrates in small intestine where it doeş`t belong.
The most of propionate in blood comes from absorption from small intestine.

According to Nemechek,
The bacterial familes that predominantly colonize the colon vs the small intestine are very diffeerent in many aspects. One is their capability of digesting different fibers.

I've spent too much time trying to find a study that is behind this statement.
Haven't found.

Off topic, I wonder - if bacteria from gut communicates with brain, as McFabe said, maybe that is the reason why all the supplements given to child as anti inflammatories, stopped working after couple of weeks.
With reduction of inflammatory substances (IL-6, TNF...), the communication between microbiome and brain is probably distracted, so, bacteria must increase its secretion to maintain environmental conditions that are required for its survival.
Then supplements stop working.
First you must heal the gut (in regressive autism, gut`s symptoms are so common) and then deal with inflammation, not the other way around.

majadj
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:09 pm

Re: Nemechek protocol for autism (A good read for sure)

Postby majadj » Sat May 13, 2017 8:53 am

This is all I've found
Selective Stimulation of Bifidobacteria in the Human Colon by
Oligofructose and Inulin

http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/0016-5085(95)90192-2/pdf?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencedirect.com%2Fscience%2Farticle%2Fpii%2F0016508595901922
Both OF and inulin acted as selective bifidogenic factors
by increasing their numbers in absolute terms and
as a proportion of total anaerobes, thus resulting in Bifidobacterium
becoming the predominant bacterial genus.

In this present study, numbers of bacteroides, clostridia,
and fusobacteria were significantly decreased when subjects
were fed OF.


Return to “Diet and Biomedical Treatments for Autism”